camillus Posted October 31, 2014 Share #1 Posted October 31, 2014 Hi, got a question about M in an ID like M3. I read i a couple places that if the M looks like this M it is a genuine M3 and if the middle doesn't go all the way to the bottom of the letter it is a repro. my question is is that true for other knives like the M4 or the writing on the scabbards. thanks mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted October 31, 2014 Share #2 Posted October 31, 2014 camillus-It's an indicator for Camillus Repros, as compared to Camillus original M3s, and M4s. Keep in mind there are other factors, not just lettering. As far as M6 scabbard originals vs. repros, much more difficult. Rivets, stitching, numbers, and lettering are just a few of the factors to consider. You have to really study and read up on M3s, M4s, M6 scabbards, and all related materials there are way to many things to consider. STUDY! STUDY! STUDY!, and ask questions on this site. Go to the web site"US Military Knives & Bayonets", Frank Trzaska has a great repro recognition section that keeps all of us squared away on repros vs. originals. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactroop Posted October 31, 2014 Share #3 Posted October 31, 2014 I'll echo what Skip said, and point out to be careful when someone is referring specifically to a certain knife or sheath from a specific time frame. As an example there are even differences between blade marked knives verses the same model knife that is guard marked. But keep asking questions is a good policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camillus Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share #4 Posted October 31, 2014 what made me wonder is an M3 in Greg Robinsons EDGED WEAPONS REFERENCE. He shows a blade marked imperial with the wrong Ms. Another thing is periods in US. Is that an indicator of repro just in Camillus.Sorry to be a pest. Thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayonetman Posted October 31, 2014 Share #5 Posted October 31, 2014 Unfortunately every maker is different, and there can even be differences in the same maker during production. If you have the M. H. Cole books you can start there. He is not perfect, but he was pretty meticulous in his drawings and most of the drawings were done before the fakes really started to be common. If you don't have it, get Military Knives, A Reference Book from http://www.knifeworld.com/milkniv.html which will help a lot. Otherwise, post your questions here as there are a lot of good people here to help. I am pretty good on bayonets, not too bad on Camillus, and after that I don't know too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted October 31, 2014 Share #6 Posted October 31, 2014 camillus- As far as Imperials go, if you question authenticity, check out ebay. Imperial made more M3s than anyone, the majority of M3s for sale are Imperials. Easy to learn about markings. There were occasional mis-stamps, they did wear out. I have 9 Imperial M3s, dated, blade, guard, and dual marked. Since they made the most, doubt there would be a reason to make fakes, or repros. But, I heard many years ago, the French made them for their airborne troops with the blades marked "Imperial", but had never seen anything else on it, nor ever saw one. You can't go wrong with an Imperial. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collector Posted November 5, 2014 Share #7 Posted November 5, 2014 camillus- As far as Imperials go, if you question authenticity, check out ebay. Imperial made more M3s than anyone, the majority of M3s for sale are Imperials. Easy to learn about markings. There were occasional mis-stamps, they did wear out. I have 9 Imperial M3s, dated, blade, guard, and dual marked. Since they made the most, doubt there would be a reason to make fakes, or repros. But, I heard many years ago, the French made them for their airborne troops with the blades marked "Imperial", but had never seen anything else on it, nor ever saw one. You can't go wrong with an Imperial. SKIP Since you have a good selection of Imperials, where do you stand on the 'M' question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactroop Posted November 5, 2014 Share #8 Posted November 5, 2014 camillus- As far as Imperials go, if you question authenticity, check out ebay. Imperial made more M3s than anyone, the majority of M3s for sale are Imperials. Easy to learn about markings. There were occasional mis-stamps, they did wear out. I have 9 Imperial M3s, dated, blade, guard, and dual marked. Since they made the most, doubt there would be a reason to make fakes, or repros. But, I heard many years ago, the French made them for their airborne troops with the blades marked "Imperial", but had never seen anything else on it, nor ever saw one. You can't go wrong with an Imperial. SKIP I would like to share that I've seen some M3's that were reproductions that included brown plastic spacers. The knives I saw were sterile. At first glance I thought I was looking at an Imperial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted November 5, 2014 Share #9 Posted November 5, 2014 Collector- The only time I'm concerned with "Ms" is when dealing with Camillus repros. But there are a lot more "ID" issues with those than just "Ms". Imperials I don't even question, because there are so many around, there is little to no reason for me to question authenticity. They made over 850,000, or the 2.5 million M3s totally made. Imperial produced a lot of after market M3s w/ brown spacers, no markings. Have also seen what I believe to have been "KIFFE" Japanese repro M3s w/ brown spacers too. If I question somethings authenticity, I just don't buy it until I can research it more. Do you research, that's the best advice I can give. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactroop Posted November 5, 2014 Share #10 Posted November 5, 2014 I realize that this may turn out to muddy up the water here, but I don't want anyone who's starting out to make an incorrect assumption about all the WW2 Camillus made knives. below are examples of WW2 Camillus made blades that as you can see have a different "M". The knife on the left is a late War pilots 5" fixed blade knife. The one on the right is a late War Navy MK II knife. Notice that while the "M" in CAMILLUS has the long center legs, the "M" in MARK is an example of a short center legs "M". My intention here is to remind some of the readers that the OP was started about M3's, and the first response was specifically regarding Camillus made M3's both War production and post war reproductions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camillus Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share #11 Posted November 5, 2014 I can see it can vary within the maker as well. I have a MKII guard marked USN and the M in camillus and in MKII are the same length, this is confusing but I guess that is what makes it fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayonetman Posted November 5, 2014 Share #12 Posted November 5, 2014 Just to keep the record straight, but I believe the top photo that sactroop shows is not WW2 but the 1950s pilot knife. Not positive but based on the mark. If I am wrong, I apologize. Has nothing to do with the discussion, it is quite true that the M mark varies with the knife and time period. My original remarks are based on telling the WW2 M4 bayonet from the 1953 version and the 1990s commercial ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted November 5, 2014 Share #13 Posted November 5, 2014 Collector -For whatever it's worth, dug out my dual marked Imperial for quick reference, and to satisfy both our curiosities. The Imperial "M" on both the guard, and blade are of the "High Center" type "M". Just like pictured here to the left. So we all know. But as I mentioned earlier, I don't get concerned about Imperials. They flood the markets. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactroop Posted November 5, 2014 Share #14 Posted November 5, 2014 Hi Gary. No it's not one of those. I didn't want to post a picture of the whole knife because I believe the most common response would be; Hold on I've never seen that knife in any of my references! At the risk of hijacking this thread here's the whole knife. I realize that many won't be comfortable with what I'm calling this knife. They have been touched on in at least a couple of threads here on the forum before. At this point I'm personally comfortable with what I believe this to be. But I realize not everyone will be interested in walking that path. Maybe someone like Frank will come by and either set me straight or expand on what they are, if there are enough uncovered facts regarding these. I will add that there are examples of the same hilt with the 5" fullered blade we commonly ID with the Camillus pilots knife. IMHO those are examples of Camillus using up their existing stock as they transitioned to the saber ground blade. I even came across one with the first series tang stamp. I tried to get it but at least two other collectors suspected the same thing I did and drove the price beyond my network. At this point I'm keeping hope alive that there may have been more than one of those blades at the bottom of the bin as they used up the old stock. Really for those reading this post there really is more conjecture in the above than truly confirmed and verified fact. So please consider that IMHO should always be considered that and nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted November 5, 2014 Share #15 Posted November 5, 2014 Sactroop- This looks like the plated USN MK1 to me. Am I correct? SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayonetman Posted November 6, 2014 Share #16 Posted November 6, 2014 My mistake - just goes to show I shouldn't jump to a conclusion when I don't see enough. For those that are following, one of the threads discussing this is at: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/200448-questions-on-a-bright-blade-camillus-mark-1/?hl=%2Bkeep+%2Bthis+%2Bknife+%2Bwell+%2Boiled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactroop Posted November 6, 2014 Share #17 Posted November 6, 2014 SKIP it's not plated. Finished bright as certainly some of the Camillus MK I's were. This example has no Navy identifiers. I see were you mentioned a similar knife in your stash from the link that Gary provided. Also see where Frank explained these as knives made for the Army under the procurement heading of "knife, hunting". I may have taken a leap of faith here with the presence of the 5" fuller blades of the WW2 Camillus pilots knives being attached to some of these hilts in thinking that they too would have been directed to the U.S.A.A.F. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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