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WWI Wing on EBAY


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#1 usaf70

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 07:16 PM

This also appears to be a repro.
Any other opinions?


http://www.ebay.com/...984.m1438.l2649

#2 Jack's Son

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 07:27 PM

Pictures....

a.jpg b.jpg

#3 Jack's Son

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 07:28 PM

Pictures....

c.jpg d.jpg

#4 Jack's Son

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 07:29 PM

Pictures....

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#5 juvatwad

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 10:08 PM

This also appears to be a repro.
Any other opinions?
http://www.ebay.com/...984.m1438.l2649


I believe all opinoins will be the same as yours...fake.

Ian

#6 hawk3370

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:51 AM

This also appears to be a repro.
Any other opinions?
http://www.ebay.com/...984.m1438.l2649


This particular style with the straight sides on the shield first showed up in Florida in the mid 70's as I recall. A dealer in Fla claimed to have obtained a box full of the full and half size wings from a WW1 vet that is said to have stolen them from a PX in 1918. He had hidden them all these years for fear of being arrested for the theft but because of age and hard times he decided to part with them. Thats the story that went along with these, guess the dealer thought that everyone out there just fell off the turnip truck yesterday. I have never seen any pictures or data to indicate that this style was made or worn during the war, and until some provenance comes up to indicate otherwise I would decline to put them in my collection.

Terry

#7 pfrost

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 09:05 PM

This particular style with the straight sides on the shield first showed up in Florida in the mid 70's as I recall. A dealer in Fla claimed to have obtained a box full of the full and half size wings from a WW1 vet that is said to have stolen them from a PX in 1918. He had hidden them all these years for fear of being arrested for the theft but because of age and hard times he decided to part with them. Thats the story that went along with these, guess the dealer thought that everyone out there just fell off the turnip truck yesterday. I have never seen any pictures or data to indicate that this style was made or worn during the war, and until some provenance comes up to indicate otherwise I would decline to put them in my collection.

Terry


We have discussed this wing pattern at length on another thread; With all due respect to those smarter than me, I still wouldn't be so quick to toss this wing in the "fake pile"...
http://www.usmilitar...d...wings&st=20

I have to disagree with my esteemed colleagues and argue that this is a good wing (and rather rare variant compared to the number of BB&B and Eisenstadt wings out there.

I can't speak to a ~40 year old story, but having had the opportunity to actually own and handle this pattern wing (and actually take one apart!), as well as hold all 3 Dallas pattern wings in hand, side by side, I have no doubt that the straight sided shield wing is vintage to WWI. The construction of the wing, hardware, fabric covering, and exquisite workmanship are not indicative of a fake--and I have also studied my fair share of fake Dallas wings.

But, I guess one has to either buy a story or buy the item, but either way, they have to be happy with the purchase. Putting aside the story of a 70's vintage fake, this wing has all the hallmarks of a good Dallas wing. Russ and Todd have had a chance to see these wings in hand, and can attest to what I am talking about, as have a couple of other major WWI wing collectors. On the other hand, at least 2 other equally respected WWI wing collectors have given it a thumb down (Terry and Cliff--but they never handled mine). An interesting wing all the way around and far from a consensus as to its vintage.

Still, as Terry says, until some solid provenance comes to light (or even better a period photo), we are kind of all stuck with making our own choices. I do feel that I found a photo that shows this wing in wear, but am more than ready to concede that the particular picture is not as clear as I would hope and I could be mistaken.

Frankly, I like the wing a lot, but at the price asked... you may as well save you money and buy a more recognized Dallas wing pattern. Save yourself the heartburn because you will likely never convince 100% of the people the straight sided wing is a good one. At the end of the day, I think you should do you own research, decide for yourself, and then collect to your level of risk.

But you should really LOOK at this wing, rather than decide on old gun show lore about some guy who may have made a fake some time in the past.

Just my thoughts, but if my purse had been less abused and the price lower, I would likely be considering bidding on this wing.

Best
Patrick

Edited by pfrost, 15 July 2012 - 09:08 PM.


#8 CliffP

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:12 AM

On the other hand, at least 2 other equally respected WWI wing collectors have given it a thumb down (Terry and Cliff--but they never handled mine).

Patrick

:think: Hold it Patrick!

I've never given that design a definitive thumb down, at least not yet; however, in your thread dated October 25, 2009, I did say the following about the three (Miller) fakes that were offered to me back in 1987 by a dealer in Pennsylvania:

Mr. Miller was the fellow in Florida who said he could design and make a bogus WW1 wing badge in a style that would fool anybody . . . and he came very close to doing it. I have correspondence sent in August 1987 by a collector/dealer from Pennsylvania in which he offered three of the (Miller) made badges if I wanted them.

We all know that Bailey, Banks & Biddle as well as Eisenstadt made similar looking 'Dallas' wing badges and both have been copied by fakers numerous times. In the case of the bogus WW1 wing badges made by Miller, one could say that it would only be a matter of time before the forgers began making castings of them too.

And below you can see the three that were offered to me. Note that they were all the same size but the Polaroid camera was held at an angle when the photo was taken.

Cliff

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#9 hawk3370

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 05:32 AM

We have discussed this wing pattern at length on another thread; With all due respect to those smarter than me, I still wouldn't be so quick to toss this wing in the "fake pile"...
http://www.usmilitar...d...wings&st=20

I have to disagree with my esteemed colleagues and argue that this is a good wing (and rather rare variant compared to the number of BB&B and Eisenstadt wings out there.

I can't speak to a ~40 year old story, but having had the opportunity to actually own and handle this pattern wing (and actually take one apart!), as well as hold all 3 Dallas pattern wings in hand, side by side, I have no doubt that the straight sided shield wing is vintage to WWI. The construction of the wing, hardware, fabric covering, and exquisite workmanship are not indicative of a fake--and I have also studied my fair share of fake Dallas wings.

But, I guess one has to either buy a story or buy the item, but either way, they have to be happy with the purchase. Putting aside the story of a 70's vintage fake, this wing has all the hallmarks of a good Dallas wing. Russ and Todd have had a chance to see these wings in hand, and can attest to what I am talking about, as have a couple of other major WWI wing collectors. On the other hand, at least 2 other equally respected WWI wing collectors have given it a thumb down (Terry and Cliff--but they never handled mine). An interesting wing all the way around and far from a consensus as to its vintage.

Still, as Terry says, until some solid provenance comes to light (or even better a period photo), we are kind of all stuck with making our own choices. I do feel that I found a photo that shows this wing in wear, but am more than ready to concede that the particular picture is not as clear as I would hope and I could be mistaken.

Frankly, I like the wing a lot, but at the price asked... you may as well save you money and buy a more recognized Dallas wing pattern. Save yourself the heartburn because you will likely never convince 100% of the people the straight sided wing is a good one. At the end of the day, I think you should do you own research, decide for yourself, and then collect to your level of risk.

But you should really LOOK at this wing, rather than decide on old gun show lore about some guy who may have made a fake some time in the past.

Just my thoughts, but if my purse had been less abused and the price lower, I would likely be considering bidding on this wing.

Best
Patrick


Patrick,
I hope that a pic some day pops up to confirm your assessment I would like nothing better than to recognize a variant that would enhance one's collection. On this particular wing badge pictured in this thread I would maintain that this is a casting not a die struck wing. Look at the beading on both wings its inconsistant, there appears to be some tiny beads of silver in the feathering, the wool appears to be to corse and the sewing on the back is not consistant with the quality of workmanship of the period. All in all I have to bow to both you and Cliff on your stand as to the possibility of this being a legit period design. Since I have never seen one pop up from a vet or in pic doesn't mean it didn't exist, and as I have stated on many occasions I don't think anyone is a expert in this field (With the exception of maybe Duncan and Cliff) certainly not me. One must keep an open mind in this field of collecting but at the same time one must proceed with caution on new and unknown designs.

Terry

#10 juvatwad

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 08:18 PM

When I look at the wing in question, I see poor, uneven beading along the wings. I have yet to see an original of the type ("Dallas") with such uneveness in this area.

Ian

#11 pfrost

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 05:21 PM

Sorry Cliff for speaking for you. My bad! Please forgive.

While I like the wings in this auction and I don't think they are cast, I agree it is hard to know for sure without handling them in person. I was speaking in generalities of this pattern of wing, not so much this specific auction.

I took some time to try to make some better scans of my Dallas wing family. In my case, I have no doubt in my mind that the wings I post here are not cast wings. Take a look, enjoy, be critical, be cruel, let me know what you think. :thumbsup:

Attached Images

  • dallas_family2a.jpg


#12 pfrost

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 05:35 PM

The major criteria that I use for Dallas wings are the "beads" that outline the wings/shield and the quality of the feathering. I look that the beads are relatively evenly spaced and equal in size. Frankly, a casting can't capture that detail. Perhaps the newer faking techniques will capture those details, but the original fakes don't have it.

It has been noted that the BB&B and Eisenstadt wings have beads that extend past the wing tip (another diagnostic for fakes).

These wings don't have the beads extending past the tip. These wings are die struck in a "cliche" style--the back and front are mirror images of each other. They are attached to the brass plate by a U shaped staple of thin wire.

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  • dallasfamily2b_b.jpg


#13 pfrost

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 05:37 PM

Of the two other types of Dallas wings, the square sided shield wing has feathering that is very similar (but not exact) to the BB&B made Dallas wings. I wonder if the one was a prototype or alternate version?

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  • dallasfamily2b_a.jpg


#14 pfrost

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 05:42 PM

Close up of all 3 wings. You can see the similarities in the beading. Clearly, the straight sided shield is not simply a casting of either the other two patterns, but is its own unique badge with its own unique flavor. Again, look at the beads. Also the feathering. The feathering has a very nice 3D look to it, with the individual veins and threads. Sadly, it is hard to get a good scan of these features, but anyone who has handled a good Dallas wing and a fake, can quickly get a feel for the similarities.

Other things about these wings are the pin and fabric. Two of the wings are more worn than the third, but they all have similar pins, catches and fabric.

Also, the BB&B and Eisenstadt wings have cuts between the wings, but the other doesn't have them.

Attached Images

  • dallasfamily2b.jpg

Edited by pfrost, 17 July 2012 - 05:54 PM.


#15 pfrost

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 05:51 PM

Last scan for now Here is a scan of the shield. Again, the beads that outline the shield are very clear, even and equally spaced, as are the stars and pales. The shield is highly vaulted (for lack of a better word). The "US" is slightly different for each wing, but all seem to be gold. It also seems that the US is attached directly to the shield.

IIRC In many of the fake Dallas wings (which were based on casting of extant wings), the gold US is actually attached over a cast "US" in the shield. That is because the casting would have had the original gold "US" already on the wing and would have been transfered to the fake casting. A second, gold "US" would then have to be added to the casting to cover that flaw. In the wings shown, the underlying "US" is attached directly to the shield.

The detail on the US is very crisp and clean. As I said, it is a die struck piece (also in the cliche) and with the U shaped staple. I didn't find any markings on the back of the pieces of the wings.

As nice as these scans are, in person, the quality and workmanship of all three wings is very high. I guess that is all I an offer to this discussion is as close a comparison of all three Dallas wing patterns as is possible (without visiting all of you in person and letting you see your selves :rolleyes: ).

So, while fakes may exist of this straight sided wing (and I believe they do), I frankly don't think they are all bad.

Hope you enjoyed.

Patrick

Attached Images

  • dallasfamily2c.jpg


#16 pfrost

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 06:23 PM

This is a wing that came out of a recent auction. I think it is a classic casting of the above shown straight sided Dallas wing. Brown "patina in a can", but compare the details--especially in the feathering. The fake has very plain and crude feathers with little detail or finesse.

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  • dallasfamily2D.jpg

Edited by pfrost, 17 July 2012 - 06:24 PM.


#17 pfrost

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 06:27 PM

Comparison of the shield. The cast wing has the "US" cast into the shield. Note the lack of detail and crispness in the stars. Also see the deformed stars (they look like little PAC-men) running down the right side of the shield on the casting. It really is like night and day in this case.

Going back to the original wing that started this thread, I see more similarities with my wing than the cast wing, but that is just my opinion.

Attached Images

  • dallasfamily2E.jpg



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