I picked this up the other day. Not inscribed and the engraving on the blade is worn, but still a beautiful piece of work.

 

Beast,

 

A great pickup of a very scarce sword!

 

Is there a maker on your sword? Here is a photo of mine by Clauberg.

 

 

Here is a closeup of the hilt showing the differences between the swords due to different makers.

 

SARGE,

 

That's a nice example that you have! The one that I had owned sported a metallic colored scabbard - I mentioned this is the other post that Beast had posted this on. Mine was identified to an Assisant Surgeon in the 117th New York. (Henry W. Carpenter) I wonder if the all brass scabbard such as the one you own is indicative of German made swords??

 

Chris

could someone tell me the history of these?

thanks

Dustin,

 

The M1840 Medical Staff sword was a new pattern sword that was part of the 1840/1850 revision of regulations. This particular sword would have been worn by any commissioned officer that was a member of the Medical Department. These are generally considered a Civil War sword, but were actually worn from around 1841, through the Mexican War period (1846/1848) until, I think, 1872, when a new pattern sword was adopted. Various firms manufactured these, or in the case of Horstmann, "assembled", and the quality can vary greatly. I have seen some examples that are Presentation grade, with gold plate, and embedded gems. Sometimes a name is inscribed, often times, not.

 

Note: NCO's would have carried the standard M1840 NCO sword.

 

Though not definitive, this sums up the history of the sword.

 

Chris

I also wanted to mention that Medical Department also includes regimental officers, such as Surgeon, and Assistant Surgeon.

 

Chris

Chris,

 

I had another one of these some years ago that also had a brass scabbard like this one. There was no maker but it was also an early sword with the heavy oval blade with etching and follow-up engraving. That one went in partial trade for an ivory grip presentation and I had to scrounge up this one. Actually, I am happier with this maker marked sword than I was with the other one... so it was a good trade.

 

I am still looking for the almost identical Pay Department sword but I have not found one yet (that I can afford). Nowadays, I seldom see the Medical Staff swords for sale and have not seen a Pay Department for sale at any price for several years. Beast made a good move when he got this MS sword.

 

BTW, have you seen the Frenchy looking swords that have this same hilt with triangular blades? There is no marking on the langets (i.e. MS or PD) and the blade reminds me of French court swords. The blades usually have generic etched and engraved motifs and are partially blued and gilt in the early French manner. I wonder what anyone thinks those particular swords might be???

SARGE,

 

It does seem as though I have seen those "generic" swords floating around. I am not sure exactly what they are - my guess is that they were never meant for export. Another theory, which could also work, is that they were purchased by militia's before or after the war.

 

The Pay Department sword is much more rare than the medical sword. I saw one for sale a couple of years ago. I believe Will Gorges had the sword, at Battleground Antiques. I don't remember the price, but I know that it goes for quite a bit more than the MS swords.

 

Do you still have the ivory grip? Is it a true presentation sword, or is it ***presentation grade***?

 

Chris

Chris,

 

The generic swords of this type are odd. I don't know what to make of them myself. I have never bought one just because I could not get straight in my mind what they would have been used for. Not military I suspect.

 

I do still have the Ivory grip presentation sword. It is a true wartime presentation sword to a Penn Regimental Adjutant. It is a G.W. Simmons sword with the Goddess of Liberty pommel and eagle fighting the snake of secession on the guard 1850 style. It is outstanding.

Sarge,

 

First of all, that is a great sword that you have posted! I had not seen one before I found mine and had to do research on exactly what it was before I bought it (the seller had it marked as a West Point Cadet sword). I appreciate you showing your example.

 

Mine is marked "Schuyler, Hartley and Graham New York" There is wear to the blade, the markings on the blade are not as crisp as you might see on a 1903 sword for example. Also there is wear on the scabbard where it rubbed against the body when it was worn. I have gone over it and have not found an inscription. That being said, for a non-presentation sword, I really love the design and workmanship of these. I hope you find the Pay Department version and will post it here!

 

Chris,

Thanks for answering Dustin's question and posting the info on the sword. Wish you had a photo of the one you sold!

BEAST,

 

Schuyler, Hartley and Graham is probably just as well known as the Ames Mfg. firm when it comes to swords. Schuyler, Hartley and Graham were "military outfitters", who carried a diversity of military and fraternal equipage during the Civil War, and the post war era. After the huge demand for equipage sharply declined after the Civil War, this company switched over to selling fraternal items. (They did so to a lesser extent before and during the war) I happen to have a copy if the 1864 Schuyler, Hartley & Graham catalog, which I am sure that your sword would be in there. I will post a picture here for you. If you want a photo copy, just shoot me your address, and I can send you one - it would be a nice thing to go with your sword. (Pending I can find the sword in there)

 

Chris

Firstly, here is your sword as it was seen in their 1864 catalog. Notice how the lagnet is void of any department markings (Medical Department/Pay Department). Since these swords were the same exact pattern, just with different initials on the lagnet, they just used the generic version for their illustration.

 

SARGE ----> It has occurred to me that perhaps the generic version that we were talking about could possibly be an undesignated example, having never had the initials applied to the lagnet? This would require detailed knowledge about their manufacturing and assembling practices. It could be possible that the sword was finished to order with the appropriate initials. It seems plausible, if not likely.

 

I have also included similar renditions of the presentation sword that you had mentioned. Of course, depending on how much a group was willing to pay for their "gift" to an esteemed officer, the quality could vary exponentially.

 

Lastly, I have included the write up in Bazelon & McGuinn's Directory of military dealers. In this reference, he mentions a more detailed write up in "Civil War Guns", by Edwards. I own a copy of this, so I will see about posting this information as well - if it is applicable.

 

Be sure to click on the images to enlarge them -

 

Chris

...

..

..

 

Thanks Chris for posting these. It appears that mine is a pre-1865 when the name was changed to include "& Company". Did the name revert back after 1867?

BEAST,

 

To my knowledge, they didn't. I looked in Edwards book, "Civil War Guns", and it dealt principally with the firm's sale in firearms. I have a couple more references I will post here. I don't mean to bombard you with all of this - lol

 

PS - PM received - I will get those references copied and sent right out to you.

 

Chris

OK - here is my last run on pictures! (This will teach you to inspire me on my day off! LOL)

 

Though Edward's book did not offer anything significantly relative to their business in swords, I did find a nice picture of the proprietor - Marcellus Hartley.

 

I also wanted to illustrate both the MD & PD swords that were used during the Civil War. What not a better book to illustrate this is Howard Crouch's "Historic American Swords". Not only can we see the two versions, but we can also see YOUR sword in a period photograph. Crouch notes that this pattern sword dropped in quality after the war. So not only does the address indicate that this is a CW period sword, but so will the superb quality of the sword, compared to later examples.

 

Chris

...

SARGE - According to Crouch, the PD sword sometimes has no lettering on the Lagnet - see my photo and caption beside the pic....

 

Chris

Beast,

 

You did a super job of picking this sword out from the mislabeled identification of a West Point Cadet sword! Your maker is outstanding as well. You should be rightfully proud of this buy. Believe me if I do find a Pay Department sword I will post it.

 

Chris,

 

Great job helping Beast with his research!

 

My problem with the unmarked versions of this sword is that they could be anything. For instance, the 1885 Ames Sword Company catalog shows these swords with MS in the langet as their #515 Medical Staff sword and with PD in the langet as their #516 Paymaster sword. The same guard with VG in the langet is shown as a New Haven Veteran Greys sword #622 and also a Veteran Guard sword #623. These are militia units of course. The blank langet sword is shown as a Military Association sword #624. So, the blank langet swords are not specific to either the Medical Staff or Pay Departments. I have always felt that the only two proper regulation Army swords are the MS and PD marked ones.

 

BTW, I don't wish to hijack Beast's thread but I will take some photos of the ivory grip sword and post it under another topic.

Beast,

 

You did a super job of picking this sword out from the mislabeled identification of a West Point Cadet sword! Your maker is outstanding as well. You should be rightfully proud of this buy. Believe me if I do find a Pay Department sword I will post it.

 

Chris,

 

Great job helping Beast with his research!

 

My problem with the unmarked versions of this sword is that they could be anything. For instance, the 1885 Ames Sword Company catalog shows these swords with MS in the langet as their #515 Medical Staff sword and with PD in the langet as their #516 Paymaster sword. The same guard with VG in the langet is shown as a New Haven Veteran Greys sword #622 and also a Veteran Guard sword #623. These are militia units of course. The blank langet sword is shown as a Military Association sword #624. So, the blank langet swords are not specific to either the Medical Staff or Pay Departments. I have always felt that the only two proper regulation Army swords are the MS and PD marked ones.

 

BTW, I don't wish to hijack Beast's thread but I will take some photos of the ivory grip sword and post it under another topic.

 

 

Sarge, Feel free to hijack!!

 

I would enjoy seeing any presentation or other unusual CW/IW/Span-Am swords! By the way, I would like to say that when I saw the sword, I struck like lightning...but I didn't. I didn't recognize it and had to google it. I wasn't even sure what "MS" stood for. I thought it was a later pattern sword and was playing around with all sorts of meanings (Maritime Service, Masonic Something or another, etc). It took me a while to come up with Medical Service, as I kept thinking it had been know as Medical Department. Fortunetly for me, it just continued to hang on his wall. For all you kids at home, this is why you need a good reference library! Of course I could have posted the information on this forum and had an answer in minutes! Thanks again for all of the info! Hope to see more swords soon!

I have posted this sword in another thread looking for help in getting it unstuck from the scabbard. However here I would like to post it to further the discussion on the medical/pay sword. Is this the sword referred to by SARGE as the "Military Association sword #624"? Is the scabbard correct?

 

 

 

Wrong scabbard I would say. It looks rather like the liner throat is separated from the scabbard body and the whole thing is stuck. Can we see a closeup of where the blade enters the scabbard?

Wrong scabbard I would say. It looks rather like the liner throat is separated from the scabbard body and the whole thing is stuck. Can we see a closeup of where the blade enters the scabbard?

 

Sarge,

My apologies, I thought I had already posted these photos. Here are a few close-ups.