Information on the correct orientation of stars on ribbon bars-- vernon

Is the picture upside down. The star tips should be pointing up...on the purple heart and good conduct. When someone is new to the military this is a common mistake. Usually corrected by other personnel such a good Chief, LPO, or LDO....

Is the picture upside down. The star tips should be pointing up...on the purple heart and good conduct. When someone is new to the military this is a common mistake. Usually corrected by other personnel such a good Chief, LPO, or LDO....

 

I'm not certain if it were regulation at one time, or if people just routinely blew it off, but I have had uniforms up to and including those of admirals with the stars up-side-down. Not unusual, particularly in pre-WW2 and WW2 groups.

 

Dave

Is it possible the finish wore off the oak leaf? The black finish could of flaked off as well. I like the bar. The oak leaf is unusual and has that "been there" look to it. It's not like somebody stuck a modern cluster on the bar.....

 

-Ski

I'm pretty sure the Navy did not use the oak leafs on the SS. It should be the gold or silver stars on the ribbon.

SWMDO and Dave raise another interesting comment about Navy stars being mounted with either one or two points up. The late Colonel Gleim mentioned that it was Navy policy to have the stars fixed with two points up before 1950, but with one point up after 1950. See "The Gleim Medal Letters", Extract E5 on pages 99-100 for his commentary. I don't know where Gleim found this information: it might have been published in some obscure wartime Navy Regulation or Directive.

 

Irish's ribbon bar now has additional evidence for its being a WW2 period assembly. And Dave's WW2 Navy uniforms with ribbon stars fixed two points up should also be correct.

Here's an excerpt from the 1948 Navy Awards Manual, which states "Stars shall be placed upon the ribbon point down."

 

I like it also.Seems like it was found or bought right and by the looks of it it has been together a long time.As for the arrangement it is a mystery but non the less right as far as Im concerned.I would have bought it in a heart beat

 

RD

Hey fellas, thanks for all the input, I had not looked at this thread for a while and was pleased to see all of the informed posts. . This forum is great

When I was in the 175th Infantry of the MD National Guard we had a trophy that was awarded for squad competitions that was named after a Joseph Farinholt. Joe was in the 175th during WWII and he came to my unit three or four times and talked with use. What was special about Joe was that he awarded four Silver Stars during WWII and to my knowledge he was and still is the only one that has ever been awarded four Silver Stars.

The navy gold stars very frequently had their gold color come off over time. In fact I'd be suspicious if they were NOT bronze. Also, Tom is correct regarding the upside-down stars. "Stars shall be placed upon the ribbon point down" is the wording in the 1942 regs.

Here's an excerpt from the 1948 Navy Awards Manual, which states "Stars shall be placed upon the ribbon point down."

 

 

This topic raised the issue of "points down" on the star devices and I was hoping for some clarification. The regulation cited I believe pertains only to the small 3/16 inch stars. Is that correct? Do the WW-II regulations even specify whether points were up or down on the larger gold, silver, bronze, or blue stars? Here is the similar regulation from the 1953 Navy and Marine Corps Awards Manual, Section1.9: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/Awards/Awards-I.html

 

Any assistance would be appreciated.

The photo is MIA.

This topic raised the issue of "points down" on the star devices and I was hoping for some clarification. The regulation cited I believe pertains only to the small 3/16 inch stars. Is that correct? Do the WW-II regulations even specify whether points were up or down on the larger gold, silver, bronze, or blue stars? Here is the similar regulation from the 1953 Navy and Marine Corps Awards Manual, Section1.9: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/Awards/Awards-I.html

 

Any assistance would be appreciated.

 

Yes, and I need to look through my references and will post them once I locate this information but, in 1942 the point meant singular and was pointed down, meaning, two points up on all stars. That later changed but let me get the references. As previously stated, the regs were not always followed but you would think eventually corrected if the member stayed in long enough.

 

Tim

Still looking through the early (1942-'43ish) stuff but, here some information that might help.

 

** Quick note, as the image size is limited to 150 kbyt here, the images are not the best but I'll attach a full page, then a closeup of the highlighted area for ease of reading. **

 

 

In the June 1946 All Hands Bulletin, a bulletin board section was devoted towards the uniform/medals regulations of the time. They did this every few years before and after this specific issue. In that, it took excerpts straight out of the uniform regulations and included it in All Hands.

 

On page #72, they discuss service ribbons and show a figure depicting the correct wear and setup of how ribbons and attachments are to be worn. However...

... If you look at the figure, the ribbons depicted actually show the stars with one point up and two points down. This was contrary to the actual written and prescribed regulations on wear.

On the following page (pg. 73) in All Hands, the regulations continued and the actual wording spelled out that the stars were in fact "point down".

 

I think many people simply looked at the figure and never bothered to read on. This is where, IMO, the confusion came in, along with the fact that the actual regulation had the figure incorrect and did not change it.

Sorry for the terrible resolution on these. :crying: Here's the closeup:

As these bulletins go out to the Fleet, there are always people that like to prove the editor or author wrong, whether its a case of trying to show someone how much they know or just to trip up those supposedly in the know, it doesn't matter. However, over time, this kind of provides a check and balance to the system and keeps the information correct.

 

In this case, two months later, in the August 1946 issue, a reader questions the editor on the accuracy of the past (June) issue relating to the position of the stars.

Assuming I am reading this correctly, this BM2 is also functioning as an MAA and probably in a position of enforcing uniform regulations at his level and wanted to know the bottom line.

 

You can read the editor's correction and note, it applies to ALL stars, regardless of award type or level.

 

Hope that provides some answers. :thumbsup:

 

Tim

 

Yes, and I need to look through my references and will post them once I locate this information but, in 1942 the point meant singular and was pointed down, meaning, two points up on all stars. That later changed but let me get the references. As previously stated, the regs were not always followed but you would think eventually corrected if the member stayed in long enough.

 

Tim

 

Tim:

 

I'm aware that it changed to a single ray pointing up, but my question was did the 1942 regs specify points up or points down on the large stars used for decorations. The paragraph you displayed in the image was a sub-paragraph to the small 3/16 inch bronze and silver star devices. It specifies points down on the small stars. Does your reference in the preceding paragraphs say anything about the larger (1/4 inch or 5/16 inch) gold, silver, blue and bronze stars?.

Tim:

 

I guess you answered my question while I was typing a response. Many thanks for checking into this. To be honest, I don't think the regulations specified in writing for the large star devices. I've never seen it anywhere--only the part pertaining to the smaller stars. Nonetheless, even if it wasn't written into the regulations, it appeared to be basic knowledge in 1946.

 

That's also very funny about blue being the senior color on ribbons of an asymmetrical pattern. I caught a few folks in my time wearing Combat Action ribbons backwards, and PUCs upside down.

..............

 

It is interesting to note than an All-Navy notice of 1945 specifies that engagement stars were worn two points up. In 1964, another order changed this to one point up to conform with the Silver Star Medal, the Bronze Star Medal and the U.S. ensign. The Uniform Board did not consider changing the line officer's star. As far as is known, there is no heraldic meaning to the number of star points up or down.

 

http://www.ussconstant.org/ribbons_medals.htm

I wanted to add, that in the following year, the July 1947 issue updated this uniform regulation section and on page #36, shows the same figure as before however, it appears the stars have been rotated to correctly depict the single "point" down. Unfortunately, the resolution is almost impossible to tell accurately 100%, but it looks that way.

 

Additionally, the written narrative now spells out specifically, one "ray" down.

The new figure.