So I just picked up and M3 fighting knife with no markings and Bakelite spacers at the ends. Seems there are different schools of thought on the origin of these things so I'm asking for your thoughts.

1. One side seems to think they were some sort of special ops knife left unmarked for reasons of secrecy etc...

2. The other side suggests they were sold to the public sector from overstock.

3. I wonder if they were early knives (the Bakelite spacers takes to "early") that were sent out for field for testing. Seems plausible to me that after testing they did away with the Bakelite spacers because they were to fragile and began marking the knives. It also seams to me that sending overstock knives out with Bakelite spacers might cause a stir with the general public as they are again fragile and may cause returns, and one might think that all the old M3 guards would have been used up to fill the contracts before the M4 guards was sent out leaving little overstock and based on my experience with manufacturing they would likely have been stamped during the manufacturing process as the later knives were guard marked not blade marked. No marks on the guard and they were not sent out with M4 guards that I am aware of.

Frankly the special ops thing kinda seams like a stretch to me as well as again, the spacers were to fragile and the risk of special military groups being sent out with a fighting knife that breaks out of the box seams odd, second thought scratch that thought our military has done that more than once I'm sure.

 

Thoughts?

PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Sorry coming soon, not much to look at though it is not in the best shape

Thoughts/comments anyone?

I have one that appears unmarked and also has the bakelite spacers. The differennce between yours and mine is that mine has no grooves in the grip. Upon magnification I can see some guard markings that have been carefully removed. I can see what looks to be the PAL logo but it's pretty faint. My guess that they're postwar put-togethers for the surplus market, but that's only a guess...

Hey Gang! Maybe I can add some light. Imperial knife company was the only knife company who made M3's with plastic spacers. The spacers were black, brown, and even a bright red, post war. After WW2, Imperial, and the other companies had a lot of left over knives, and parts. They merely ground off any info, and sold them commercially. M4 Bayonets had the various makers using plastic spacers in the handles. Now, this unmarked, sterile, special ops craze! Let's be practical. WW2, what country made M3's--US period. In fact, I can't think of ant other country that made leather washered handles on their knives or bayonets.How long do you think you're going to fool the enemy as to who you are, or who is supporting and supplying you. If you really want to be clandestine, use the enemies own gear against him. Just my thoughts. I'm sure the other guys might be able to add a few details. SKIP

Hey Gang! Maybe I can add some light. Imperial knife company was the only knife company who made M3's with plastic spacers. The spacers were black, brown, and even a bright red, post war. After WW2, Imperial, and the other companies had a lot of left over knives, and parts. They merely ground off any info, and sold them commercially. M4 Bayonets had the various makers using plastic spacers in the handles. Now, this unmarked, sterile, special ops craze! Let's be practical. WW2, what country made M3's--US period. In fact, I can't think of ant other country that made leather washered handles on their knives or bayonets.How long do you think you're going to fool the enemy as to who you are, or who is supporting and supplying you. If you really want to be clandestine, use the enemies own gear against him. Just my thoughts. I'm sure the other guys might be able to add a few details. SKIP

 

Great points SKIP.

I also have an unmarked M3, in my case i got it from a Navy Vet who had served in the Pacific. It came with a Barwood M6 scabbard. It's in a similar condition to the one pictured above. My view is that they may be early.

 

Rich

hmmm, looks like 1 for vet owned and three for overstock to the public.

Keep in mind, almost all the early M3's were blade marked and dated. Of the 9 makers, only Aerial & Boker did not date their blade marked knives. Guard marked versions, w/ 8 and 6 grooved handles were near the end of production runs. All of the M3's I have ever seen with markings ground off are the guard marked variations.M6 scabbards were readilly available especially near war's end, and post war. The Army stopped issuing them for the sturdier, and safer M8 scabbards, so they I'm sure they were released for surplus. I have a dealer friend who said at one time he had a box of mint Moose M6 scabbards. So it makes sense to mate a ground guard marked M3 w/ a surplus M6. I would .I have a mint Imperial M3 six groove handle, ground of guard marked, which came in their PX or post war leathersheath. The Navy vet could have picked up his M3 w/ M6 at any time, during or after WW2. In two of the Army units I was assigned, we were issued USN MK2 knives(Camillus blade marked) w/ MK2 fiber scabbards. This was in the 70's and 80's. You never know! I just enjoy collecting M3's, have 26 w/ a variety of scabbards. SKIP

Keep in mind, almost all the early M3's were blade marked and dated. Of the 9 makers, only Aerial & Boker did not date their blade marked knives. Guard marked versions, w/ 8 and 6 grooved handles were near the end of production runs. All of the M3's I have ever seen with markings ground off are the guard marked variations.M6 scabbards were readilly available especially near war's end, and post war. The Army stopped issuing them for the sturdier, and safer M8 scabbards, so they I'm sure they were released for surplus. I have a dealer friend who said at one time he had a box of mint Moose M6 scabbards. So it makes sense to mate a ground guard marked M3 w/ a surplus M6. I would .I have a mint Imperial M3 six groove handle, ground of guard marked, which came in their PX or post war leathersheath. The Navy vet could have picked up his M3 w/ M6 at any time, during or after WW2. In two of the Army units I was assigned, we were issued USN MK2 knives(Camillus blade marked) w/ MK2 fiber scabbards. This was in the 70's and 80's. You never know! I just enjoy collecting M3's, have 26 w/ a variety of scabbards. SKIP

 

Great feedback thank you.

I checked my one last night. It too has the Bakerlite spacers, no sign of there ever having been a maker mark on the guard. It does however, have the ordanance mark of the flaming bomb. Was this still practice post-war ?

 

Rich

king802- Probably an oversight, no big deal. Mine had the Ordanance bomb stamped over, not ground off.Have seen some that were left in tact. Have also seen Imperial M3's with no Ord. bomb at all. Have also read that sometimes pommel was stamped prior to assembly, and could be upside down covered by handle. SKIP

I have an "unmarked" M3 that I got from a PTO vet w/ two other knives a couple of years ago. I was looking at it again the other day wondering who made this thing and the sunlight hit the blade just right and I can see what is left of super faint blade markings....

 

Whoever "ground off" the markings used a helluva nice machine that only removed 99.9% of the depth of the markings. I still cannot make out the maker.

 

There is no ordnance bomb on the pommel, but you can see where the grider took a bit off the back of the bent portion of the guard, while there is no evidence of a marking there, the finish is different then the rest.

 

I will try snapping some pics

AK101- Just for fun. Rub the stamped area w/ a pencil. Perhaps the lead will fill in any faint markings that you might be able to read on the blade. You might try to reading it w/ a magnifying glass after the rub. SKIP

Well.......

 

I took an eraser to the marked part of the blade to see if it would help me better see what was left of the markings..... I would normally never do this to a blade but I just had to know.

 

It was the Robeson M3 thread that had me looking at this again, because in that thread I learned not all M3s are marked w/ the flaming bomb on the pommel.......it appears my fears were confirmed....pretty sad really.

 

You can see on the marking side of the blade where the depth of the grind is evident in relation to the original blade width that is right by the guard (where the stopped the "grinding".

 

oops.....double post...

AK101- It was, as you feared, an RCC. It may have been a dated one, based on the strip of leather in front of the guard. Look on the bright side, you have one. You got it from a vet. It's all good. The stamp might have been struck lightly, not necessarily ground off. SKIP

Skip,

 

thanks, I'm pretty sure it was ground off, in the last pic you can see where the grinder stopped cutting just a 16th of an inch or so before the guard starts, it left a little ridge. The spot on the guard where the ord marking was located also shows signs of metal being removed....

AK101- It's ashamed it was ground up, it is a real decent one. But, as I said B4, you at least have one. Maybe later on you'll come across one to upgrade. SKIP

Hi Skip, I think I just got a ground markings Imperial too. See my other post, I was guessing a vet ground it off because he brought it back with him and was afraid of the US markings. See what happens when we guess?! Thanks for the more plausible "repurposed for civilian market" explanation.