Three of them listed from the same seller. These are interesting as I thought the die for the front of the wings would be recessed into the die, not proud of the die.

Don't know. They may have been made for a printing press rather than a die to strike insignia.  Our resident die-expert, Heath, should know.  

Interesting, maybe for leather versions?  

There are several threads here on the wing forum that discusses the use of a master die/hub to make production dies. I believe this is the case with the “Form Offical Die” tooling sent out by the U.S. Mint to various manufacturers.
 

These appear to fit the description a master hub.

 

 

Here is one of the threads I was thinking of covering die hubs.
 

 

Nice! Does this mean someone can use this to make original reproductions like some do with German medals?

I am not as versed on these as Heath, @haw68 but these appear to be master "hubs" (sometimes "hobs") which are used to make steel dies.  

 

As to the question of could they be used to make reproducible dies?  It depends on their temper and condition.  The hobs were hardened and used to strike the appropriate image into soft steel blanks.  The dies would themselves then be hardened for use.  Steel can have strange properties and if improperly hardened may become brittle.

 

Could they be used?  Theoretically yes.  However, doing so might destroy them if they are not in good shape.  Hopefully Heath will see this and weigh in.

 

Chris

I am of the leather impressing camp. Printing die would be flat, not dimensional. And they don't have the heft or detail to be hobs.

 

On 6/25/2025 at 6:03 PM, Threewood said:

I thought the die for the front of the wings would be recessed into the die, not proud of the die

 

These are hubs.  Hob or Master Die are also acceptable terms.  A Hub is a type of die whose sole purpose is to create a  stamping die (a die used for stamping finished goods).  Hubs (and stamping dies) can be incuse or relief (design raised or sunken below surface).  So, these are the hubs used to create the stamping dies which produced the wings insignia.  Note, the design on a hub will be the same as the finished item, a stamping die will always be a reverse image of the items being produced.

 

22 hours ago, rathbonemuseum.com said:

And they don't have the heft or detail to be hobs

 

I've seen factories make hubs that were made from tool steel that was no more than 1/4" thick.  Heft isn't important so long as the hub serves the purpose of making die.  I believe the detail in these is complete.  Hard to tell for sure with all the grime on these. 

 

Sometimes a hub was made with details missing.  For example, a hub may exclude a city name or date.  By doing so, the same hub can be used for events that took place multiple years or in different cities by hand stamping the letters/numbers into the die after the hub details are pressed into it.  After a hub is used to create a stamping die it was also common for an engraver to touch up or add details to the stamping die.  For example, some of the fine feathering details may be missing in the hub and added to the die.  The larger the item being stamped and the deeper the relief is the more difficult it is to get all details.  Coining dies at the U S Mint are intentionally designed with very shallow relief and lacking great detail so they can stamp out many items very quickly.  This isn't true of dies used for other purposes in other industries.

 

On 6/26/2025 at 2:44 PM, LuftStalg1 said:

maybe for leather versions

 

On 6/26/2025 at 12:06 AM, pfrost said:

may have been made for a printing press

 

 

Tooling for leather working and printing are much different and would never be confused with or be used interchangeably with tooling used for stamping insignia.  I have examples of printing blocks and leather working tooling in my collection as well.  

 

I'm glad to share information and educate anyone interested in understanding or learning more.  I am not too far from where ASMIC show is this year and would be glad to meet with, bring examples, or answer questions at the show.  I won't have a display table this year.  PM me if interested.

 

 

Thanks for the information. Great insight to the process!

John

This one sold early  - not surprising - watch for these coming soon to eBay - or hopefully an actual collector bought it ...  

 

I was first runner up on the pilot wing die hub. Hope someone here hot them.

Thanks @haw68 Heath for the correction. Always insightful!