It's not like I really needed another one of these, but I do collect National Lancer items, and I have never before seen one of their sabers with the early 1834 date.  In the photos below, the saber on top is a saber I have had for many years.  The saber on the bottom is the one I just picked up.

The National Lancers of Boston were organized in late 1836.  The state of Massachusetts purchased Ames Model 1833 sabers with special order brass scabbards to arm the 64 members of the troop. Since this purchase did not involve sabers that were part of a Federal contract, the sabers have no Federal inspector or Ordnance Department markings, just "MS" markings stamped on the quillon showing ownership by the state of Massachusetts.   I figure that since the troop only numbered 64 men, even if the state purchased a few extras, there are likely no more than 70 that were involved in this purchase, making them relatively scarce and a bit pricey when they do show up.

Most of these sabers that I have seen (and that is only a handful) have been dated 1835.  The 1834 date, and the fact that the fragile brass scabbard appears to be in better condition than my first saber (with the exception of missing one screw at the throat) are the primary reasons I decided to get this one.  It is interesting to note that while the brass scabbards were made especially for the National Lancers, it is obvious that the saber blades were not.  As I already mentioned, the National Lancers were organized in 1836.  The dates on the blades are typically dated 1835, and in the case of this second saber, 1834.  This means the blades were made at least one or two years before the idea of forming the National Lancers was even considered.  The blades are dry needle etched "United States Dragoons", indicating they were likely made for Ames's first contract to arm the United States regiment of Dragoons. Since the blades lack any Federal inspector initials, they were never inspected or accepted for this contract.  I don't know if this is because Ames had made extra blades, or if these are blades that did not pass Federal inspection, but it apparent that these sabers were made with leftover blades.  Beginning in 1835, sabers that were made to arm the militia of the various states were simply marked with the more common "United States" markings (though does Thillmann report one saber with an 1839 date that is marked Dragoons). The blades of both of my sabers remain in pretty nice condition.

Again, there are no inspector or Ordnance markings on the scabbard drags.

The Ames maker marker and date are more easily seen on my 1835 dated saber. N.P Ames Cutler Springfield 1835.

The lettering on the 1834 dated saber if more worn, but the "4" can be seen.  Since the blade is missing the blade washer, someone along the way drove an old nail between the blade and hilt to hold the blade steady.

The hilt of my 1835 dated saber is in very nice condition.  It retains almost all of its original leather and original dragoon wire.

While the 1834 saber has its original dragoon wire, the thin leather covering is worn through all the way down to the wood on some of the hilt.

The dry needle etching on these blades is very lightly done and was easily worn away during use.  The etching on the 1835 dated saber is in very nice condition for and the rare "United States Dragoons" markings can be easily seen.

The 1834 dated saber has much more wear on the etching.  Most of "United" can be seen, but only part of the "S" in States and part of the "g" in Dragoons can be seen.

Hope you enjoyed looking at the photos of these rare sabers.

So very cool!  Thank you for posting...I had no idea these even existed!

 

Eric

Typically, the only markings on the brass scabbard are numbers stamped below the throat on the reverse side. the numbers on mine are "46" and "63".

I don't know if these are simply rack numbers for storage in the Lancers armory, or if they were used to identify which saber was assigned to a particular trooper.  But since they appear to be unique to each saber/scabbard, I guess they could be used to help count/track these sabers. Over the years I have wondered how many sabers with their original brass scabbards still exist. And of the few that I have seen over the years, have they all been different sabers or could the same one have popped up here and there? So I'm starting a list of the different scabbard numbers to try to establish a count of existing sabers.  I do know another member of this forum, years ago, indicated he had a saber with the scabbard numbered "5".  As I write this, Gunderson Militaria is offering a saber with scabbard number "60" (the hilt is in very rough shape though and he has yet to answer my questions as to whether you can read any of the markings on the blade).  So right now my count stands at 4.  I know that over time that some of the sabers have become separated from their original scabbards.  The Union Drummer Boy recently sold an 1835 dated "MS" saber that, as he pointed out, was incorrectly housed in a regulation steel scabbard.  I am only looking to count sabers still matched with original brass scabbards.  If you own one, or know of one, please message me with the scabbard number so I can it to the count.  Thank you.

I still have #5.

I've been away from my research archives for the last few weeks, but I have access to them again and went through the records on the NL M1833s.  Don't know if it helps you, but what I have recorded with photos:

 

#5     1835   Cowan's Auction 2011

#30   1837   Marked National Lancers

#42   1837   Cowan's 2023 Marked National Lancers

#46   1835   Civil War Preservations 2011

#58   1834   Ebay 2015

#60   1834   

#63   1835   Ebay 2011

#77   1838   Marked National Lancers Numbers stamped on drag, not on scabbard body

No number, steel scabbard, shortened blade  1837   Antique-Swords Marked National Lancers  

 

Looks like the scabbards were freely swapped among the blades...

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Spathologist said:

I've been away from my research archives for the last few weeks, but I have access to them again and went through the records on the NL M1833s.  Don't know if it helps you, but what I have recorded with photos:

 

Thank you, that does help. It adds one more of the original 1834/35 dated ones to my list, and does confirm that some of the others have moved from seller to seller in the last 15 years. From your list, it indicates that my most recent scabbard, #46, housed an 1835 dated saber when Civil War Preservations had it in 2011. Do your records have a photo of the hilt of that saber? And I see that scabbard #60, currently for sale by Gunderson (who doesn't describe or show the dates or etching on the saber, nor answer my questions about them either) has an 1834 date. Do you have a photo of that hilt to confirm it is the same?

As for the sabers etched "National Lancers", the few that I have seen, like you indicate above, have been dated 1837 and 1838. Most of those, and the ones that I think are legitimate, lack both the "MS" Massachusetts ownership markings and Federal inspection markings. I think it is quite likely that they were private purchases by new officers as they joined the Lancers. In the Massachusetts Militia officers had to supply their own equipment and weapons. Would you mind looking at your photo records to see if any are marked "MS" or have Federal inspector markings?  I've been looking to add one to my collection. For over a year there had been one offered on Ebay, but too many things seemed off. Though not disclosed by the seller, it was housed in a British steel scabbard. The hilt looked newly rewrapped. The hilt had Federal inspector and "MS" ownership markings. I think someone either swapped hilts and blades (and it's possible the Lancers armorer could have so in a repair long ago), or in modern time someone took an 1837 dated "MS" saber with a worn away "United States" markings and re-etched it "National Lancers"to make a more valuable saber.

By the way, if you want to add another "National Lancers" etched blade to your list, the National Lancers museum in Framingham MA has a saber with the quillon stamped "41" (no "MS" or Federal makings) now housed in a regulation steel scabbard that does have "MS" and Federal inspector markings. 

Sorry, #46 is your blade, 1834 with a nail in it.

 

 

For #60 I don't have a pic of the date, just a repeat of the description.  It was on one of the Liveauctioneer auctions, I didn't record the auction house or the date.

 

The National Lancers-marked sabers are as you described with the MS marking on the quillon replaced with the rack number.  Scabbard #42 has saber #16.  Not sure what you mean by no inspector marks, #5 has an 1835 Dragoons-marked blade and has no federal inspection marks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you. Again that is most helpful. So it looks like the sabers with blades marked "National Lancers" that you have records on, as well as those that I've seen in the past, all made in 1837 and 1838, do not have any Federal inspection initials on the blade or quillion, nor are they marked with the "MS" Massachusetts ownership markings. However around the same time period Massachusetts did put the "MS" stamp on the 1838 dated Dragoon sabers (with steel scabbards and Federal inspection and ordnance markings on blade, quillon, hilt and scabbard drag) that they received from the Federal government under the 1808 Act to Arm the Militia. This would appear to support my belief that the sabers with "National Lancers" etched blades were private purchases by officers who had to provide their own sabers and were not purchased or owned by the state of Massachusetts. You've kept great records!

9 hours ago, Bob B said:

You've kept great records!

 

Thanks.  For about 15 years I was quite serious about researching US Cavalry sabers.  Career, late-life law degree, and family have kept me away from it for several years, so finding stuff in my archives isn't as intuitive as it used to be.  All the info is still there, though.  Speaking of which, I found another that was mis-catalogued under an older file naming system:

 

#76  Last two digits of date obscured.  Dragoons-marked blade.  Number on scabbard drag.  Named to a J. Baker (?).  Ebay 2020:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks. I do remember seeing that one. I also remember Kevin Hoffman saying that it was very common for the sabers to be found with mismatched scabbards. Perhaps at the Lancers armory during cleaning or refurbishing, or maybe after the Lancers returned their sabers to the state armory in 1854 in exchange for Model 1840's. At that point it probably didn't matter much what saber went into what scabbard as long as a good saber had a good scabbard. For this last "MS" marked and Massachusetts owned saber you pictured, I think it is now paired with a scabbard that originally went with a blade etched "National Lancers". The placement of the number on the scabbard drag doesn't match the placement on the other "Dragoons" marked sabers we have seen. Instead it is just like the 77 stamped on the drag of "National Lancers" etched saber (with matching 77 on saber quillon so you know they belong together) that you showed earlier. Enlisted men would have gotten into trouble for putting their name on a state owned scabbard. But an individual would be able to put his name on a scabbard that he had purchased privately. 

As mentioned above, for years now I have been looking for one of the Model 1833 sabers etched "National Lancers" and with its original brass scabbard. I just picked this one up in the recent Bonham's/Skinners Arms auction. It seems to be relatively new to the market as it is not one mentioned or depicted above, and is in truly "attic condition". The brass scabbard is so dark that in natural light it appears browned, but in flash photos you get the dark brass color.  It is missing a few wraps of the dragoon wire on the hilt, as well as the two split brass carrying rings, but the markings are very strong.

There are two rather unusual aspects about this saber. The first is that unlike the step pommel found on regulations Model 1833 Dragoon sabers, including most marked "National Lancers", this saber has the unusual smooth bird's head pommel and backstrap like those on the sabers Ames made for South Carolina in 1835.  I have only seen photos of one other "National Lancers" saber with this style pommel on Kevin Hoffman's website years ago.

The other unusual aspect, and contrary to all the other sabers discussed above, there are no rack numbers on either the saber hilt or scabbard.  And in keeping in my theory that these "National Lancers" sabers are a private purchase, there are no Federal inspector markings, nor "MS" markings showing ownership by the state of Massachusetts.

We do know that Massachusetts provided the first sabers (marked "United States Dragoons" and dated 1834 and 1835, with brass scabbards) to the original 64 members of the troop, as these sabers are marked "MS" showing Massachusetts ownership.  Perhaps this was done in consideration of the fact that it was the governor of the state that requested such a troop be formed to be his mounted escort.  Earlier in this post I mentioned that I felt that the subsequent "National Lancers" etched sabers were private purchases made by officers who joined the Lancers, as they were required to supply their own weapons. However, the photo that Spathologist provided above with a scabbard etched "I. Baker" throws that theory out the window.  Isaiah Baker was admitted to the National Lancers in January 1838 as a private, and he never became an officer. Looking a bit more closely at the regulations for the Massachusetts Militia for the time frame in question, I found that prior to 1840, all members of the militia were supposed to supply their own weapons, not just officers.  It was after 1840 that the State began supplying the weapons to enlisted men, and officers were still responsible for their weapons.  Reaching out to the military records liaison at the Massachusetts State Archives to see if they had anything about National Lancers sabers, I received photocopies of the National Lancers original meeting notes for the years 1837 and 1838, the years the "National Lancers" sabers are dated.  The 64 members of the troop began having recorded meetings in April 1837.  At each subsequent meeting, new members are admitted.  On July 7, 1837, it was voted that "The Committee on Swords and Lances order 15 more swords and 10 more lances" and "the subject of pistols" was also brought up and referred to the "Committee on Horse Equipment'. On December 26, 1837, it was voted "that an assessment of five dollars be laid on each member, three of it to go towards paying for pistols, and the other two for other incidental expenses".  It appears that after the state supplied the initial sabers, that as new members joined the National Lancers it was the troop that did the private purchase of additional sabers (those marked "National Lancers"), and though not mentioned, if like with the pistols, the new members were charged for them.