Just a couple thoughts…..

 

First, I must say I just don't see a shield on the helmet that started the post but perhaps you can see something more definite in hand????

 

Second, the green shield would represent the second supply train. This was a composite unit made up of both Marine and Army personnel. I have seen only one Marine helmet from this unit, and it is depicted in the book “Equipping the Corps”. That helmet has an ega mounted at the bottom of the shield and I would suppose that the few Marines assigned to this unit likely incorporated an ega on their helmet. I think it is safe to say that one of these helmets would be pretty scarce.

 

Third, I am not subscribing to the notion that green paint used in WWI was inferior and that the finish would fail. I have two USMC supply helmets in my collection, a green square and a green diamond and have seen numerous photographs of other supply helmets. While the shades of green may differ, there isn't any evidence that the green paint from that period would fade or fail in some aspect over time.

 

Fourth, be sure to look closely if you do see some shape on the helmet starting this thread. The 9th Infantry of the 2nd division used a pentagon shape behind the star Indianhead and the 23rd Infantry of the second division used a circle. Green for both of these units would indicate supply. Both the 23rd and 9th  were very active fighting along side Marines, and many examples of painted helmets of the various Battalions  of these Army units exist.

 

Continued good luck. 

In further study, I do now see the pointed shape with a black border at bottom of the helmet. Could be a shield???? The fading to the top and the thick scratched in border around the star doesn’t make much sense. I suspect something could have been done to the helmet over the years. Not sure why that would be. 

"Third, I am not subscribing to the notion that green paint used in WWI was inferior and that the finish would fail. I have two USMC supply helmets in my collection, a green square and a green diamond and have seen numerous photographs of other supply helmets. While the shades of green may differ, there isn't any evidence that the green paint from that period would fade or fail in some aspect over time."

 

Im not saying all green paint used to paint all of these on all helmets was inferior. Im saying perhaps whoever painted this one had some inferior green paint?

Maybe they ran out of the good green paint and had to use some water based paint? Or paint that was thinned too much?

Maybe thats why they put a black border around it because it didnt show well when they painted it?

I doubt there was any standardized universal green or any color used to paint designs and insignia.

There is definately a black border around the green shape. Its not a random blob of green in the pics you can see it..

 

In Post # 15... Clearly a shield like point in green with a black line around it. Below the star onto the rim.

Faded top could be from storage. Upside down on a wooden shelf in a damp place for years and years? Who knows.

Bad paint for the green, too thin at the time of painting,so a black outline so you could see it better.

Its speculation on my part as to why, but I do see it.

 

And theres this one... look at the shape of the green......

 

 

 

The 1st Image, I took out of Post 7.

The second image is the same image with the sharpness boosted and the color saturated by 50% and darkened overall 25 percent in Photo

Shop.

As I said in my last post, I don't think this helmet was produced this way in the period and then faded or aged to this point over time.  I have studied these helmets closely for the past 15 years or so, and I just don't see a natural aging process that affects one part of the design or one color much more than the others. I also personally don't think the theory that a certain color was compromised, or thinned too much causing it to  age more than the rest explains the way this helmet looks today. In my opinion, these guys had a palette the of red, green, yellow, blue and black. Purple was most often made by mixing red and blue. Brown, red and green, orange red and yellow, etc. For the most part, these were mass produced often by just a few men in the unit….those with some artistic ability. They were usually churned out en masse, and that is why so many have similar design elements within a company or battalion, and why they are usually rather simplistic with only three or at most four colors used. Scratched in borders are generally not seen. If sand finish was removed before painting, it was not done often and generally pretty haphazardly.  Of course like always there are no absolutes but I think what you are trying to do is get the “best” or “most probable” explanation on your helmet. I think you might want to consider the possibility the shield on this helmet could have been intentionally removed and the border around the star added later. I mean why is the star and Indianhead so legible, the bottom part of the shield slightly legible and the top of the shield only seen barely if you play around with photo shop? Not even the black border remains around the shield as you go up. That kind of removes the theory something was different with the green paint doesn’t it? Wouldn't you still have remnants of the black border? The big unanswered mystery is why? Is it possible this one was re-purposed to an Army composite helmet in the summer of 1919? That is a long shot as the Composite Battalion was assembled in May and most of the helmet painting was completed after that. Was a change made after he returned home? Did the vet obtain a painted helmet after returning home, or maybe in the twenties or thirties and want to transition it to his own?  I am afraid once again that answer will be elusive. Just my thoughts and opinions. I think the helmet is still cool, but the way it looks today just doesn’t conform to the vast majority of those painted in the Sumer of 1919. As prompted in the title of your post, those are just MY “thoughts”. 

I dont have any experience with these types of painted lids. You havce 15 years experience.

I dont know what unit it is etc etc.. All I know is I see a faint distinct shield shape that extends onto the rim thats faded out on top

with black outline. Why is the star not faded? Different type and shade paint used for the green shield. While the colors of the symbols were standardized like blues reds greens etc,

that does not mean they all used the exact same batches and hues of paint. Theres a lot of variation. Also in quality of paints.

Wasn't there a cottage industry of french artists painting these lids as well?

Were they all painted by unit members? Is'nt it possible that several different people making the same paintings could come up with variations.

Maybe the helmets owners wanted the sand scrapped off and wanted the border as a personal touch?

Im guessing of course but theres also the tiny cracks in the paint in the whites in particular because not all paint being equal, the whites tend to have more of the tiny cracks.

AM I SPECULATING THAT THE THING IS REAL?

Yup, I am. Im just seeing what I see.

All I did in photo shop is goose the saturation and darken it over all. All that did is enhance whats there.

It did not bring out anything on top because on top its is degraded and faded away or fallen off.

Like if you had it upside down on a damp piece of wood for decades.

No I dont know. Youre the expert. Just relaying what I see.

You do see it now right? The point of the shield and the black border?

I didnt notice it until I read RITtiger post mentioning the black outline.

After I read that and took another look I can def see a green shield shape with a black outline.

That outline also carries up the side.

What do you think it is?

The picture you posted above from the book, the helmet with the green shield and the ega...

Its got a black outline around the shield.

 

 

 

Let me start by saying (as I did at the start of this thread) that I think this helmet is real. I was one of the first to say that in this discussion confidently. By real, that means I think the paint is very old, painted in the same type of design and style as those painted in 1919, etc. Of course no one  can state exactly when it was painted, 1919, 1925, 1935, etc. But I like the helmet and have said that a few times. 

 

i have studied these a lot as previously mentioned, but certainly wouldn't consider myself an “expert”. I have no doubt made mistakes in interpreting these in the past and am sure to make them in the future. I really just wanted to share what little knowledge I have gained from my study. Sadly for the owner, they will likely definitively never know the story about this helmet. Really just about anything is “possible”, but if I were in your shoes, I would be looking for what is most probable. With that, I stand by my comments in my last post. 

 

To clarify a few things in the last post, I will share that unit “patched” helmets, those of the 2nd Division in particular, were for the most part painted  at the Company/Battalion level by members of the unit. Most were painted just prior to the boat ride home in June/July of 1919 when these troops were stationed in Germany on Occupation duty. Many, according to history, were actually painted “on” the boat ride home. Period photos’s in Germany show a lot of patches being worn, occasionally a gas mask bag painted, but very rarely any painted helmets. Yard long photos after the parade on August 11, and 12th in New York and Washington DC respectively, however show entire units with painted helmets.

 

Having said that, vets were having some helmets painted “over there” as souvenirs, not intended for wear. I have a really neat example of this in my collection, a named helmet to a Marine wounded severely at Soissons in July 1918, who was shipped home to the States in September 1918. He had his helmet painted by a local artisan with a tortoise shell cammo pattern and a large painted ega on the front, with AEF 1918 under it. There are a couple things instructional about this helmet….first, it was painted BEFORE the shoulder patches were designed and implemented, so there is no geometrical shape, and two, the date 1918 is interesting as most of these type of helmets painted up after the armistice will read 1918-1919, reflecting time spent on occupation duty. Many of the souvenir style helmets have a lot of embellishments on them, the unit name, dates, in a lot of cases the American flag waving. In some cases with 2nd division helmets, you might see feathers and other Indian motifs and artwork, etc. In general, with contracted cottage industry helmets, the artwork is generally better.  Anyway….the point is, this helmet, especially if there as a shield in green painted in the background, would have been one of the unit patched helmets, most likely again painted not by a artisan in the French or German countryside, but by a member of the company. And again, it would have likely been painted in June/July, 1919. 

 

In my opinion, and thats all this is, this is the most likely probability. The owner will have to decide for himself why the green shield disappeared. I offered an opinion in my last post, one probably not shared by all. As to the black border on your shield, I can show helmets that were clearly painted by the same hand, one with a square or diamond outlined in black, and one not. It probably depended largely on how much time they had on that particular day. I can guarantee they weren’t working off of a script that required a black border….or not.

 

I encourage folks to check out the wonderful threads on this forum. There is one titled WWI painted helmets, and another WWI helmets with ega’s. Both have lots of examples of original period painted helmets, and great discussion about the process, history, etc. 

 

Again I close by saying this is a neat helmet, whose history is lost to time, and that is what it is. It still makes for a cool display in a collectors room. In my opinion. Best, Kevin

 The first photo is the helmet I referred to above, painted by likely a local artist in France as a take home souvenir. Higher quality artwork, etc but not intended for wear. 

 

The second photo is of a very classic 2/5 unit patch Marine helmet. This design/hand is quite recognizable to WWI marine painted helmet collectors (one by this same artist sold last month on ebay for over $4000.00!). The third photo is the 2/5 Marine helmet in my collection and depicted in my avitar. Photos 2 and 3 are by the same artist IMO, and one of the better ones at the company/battalion level. I have seen this same helmet by this artist with a yellow star and no black outline. 

Looks like a green shield to me.  
you can see the outline of a V at the bottom.  You can also see an outline to the left alon the side of the star.  

I’m no expert.  That is why I posted it here.  The cracks in the pain, however suggested me that it was a very old paint job.  

1 hour ago, anton67 said:

I’m no expert.  That is why I posted it here.  The cracks in the pain, however suggested me that it was a very old paint job.  

I agree about the paint. There are threads on here about micro cracking in old paint.

I asked a member on here to take a look at your helmet thread. He didnt have anything

to add other than to him, it looked like the Indian is Army. I totally see the green shield and how it goes up the side.

Heres what my friend also said...

 

"On helmet you were asking about, I’ve seen that star pattern many times and it’s an Army unit or regiment just can recall the name. "

 

On 3/24/2024 at 4:18 PM, warguy said:

 The first photo is the helmet I referred to above, painted by likely a local artist in France as a take home souvenir. Higher quality artwork, etc but not intended for wear. 

 

The second photo is of a very classic 2/5 unit patch Marine helmet. This design/hand is quite recognizable to WWI marine painted helmet collectors (one by this same artist sold last month on ebay for over $4000.00!). The third photo is the 2/5 Marine helmet in my collection and depicted in my avitar. Photos 2 and 3 are by the same artist IMO, and one of the better ones at the company/battalion level. I have seen this same helmet by this artist with a yellow star and no black outline. 

beautiful examples!  

Thank you all for the input.  
it appears to me from all of the posts that it’s supply company.  
USMC?   Who knows.  

 

2 hours ago, anton67 said:

Thank you all for the input.  
it appears to me from all of the posts that it’s supply company.  
USMC?   Who knows.  

Anton, I don't think that is the conclusion my friend. You might re-reread the posts a bit more carefully. The green shield once again represents the second supply train. The Marine regiments had their own supply, so that would be a green square for fifth Marines and a green diamond for sixth Marines. The second supply train was a composite company again made up of both Army and Marine personnel. The very few Marine Second Supply Train helmets in existence have an ega mounted on them, and since your helmet has no hole punched in it, I think you can assume it wasn't a Marine who wore this one. The very light remnants of the green shield would suggest at one time this helmet could have been painted for that unit, however likely worn by an Army solider assigned there and not a Marine. Once again, the bigger question I think is why has the shield disappeared (was it intentionally removed?). And why was the border scratched in around the star? Likely a mystery to remain unsolved, but could be indicative that the helmet was re-purposed and used in another company as well. It that was the case, I still think it would have been for the Army and not Marines. Good luck, hope this clarifies some things for you. 

Thank you for clarifying.  So the green shield  represents the second supply train.

So it could be an Army second supply train helmet.  Or repurposed Army helmet used in another unit (based on the shield fade/scratched border).  
USMC second supply would have had an EGA.  

Thank you for clarifying.  So the green shield  represents the second supply train.

So it could be an Army second supply train helmet.  Or repurposed Army helmet used in another unit (based on the shield fade/scratched border).  
USMC second supply would have had an EGA.  
 

I just have one more question.

do you think that this is a possibility?

 

Maybe the top was not removed or faded.  If you look closely at my helmet it has a very rough surface.  Maybe that is why it was scratched around the star to make it smooth and easier to paint.   The painter sort have gave up on the top of the shield and painted over the grainy surface.  That is why the top looks like that.  
 

Thoughts?

My friend said its " ARMY. The star and style of the Indian are US ARMY. "

The shield in my opinion the upper part and the one side have flaked off.

They prob had a lousy batch of paint for the green shield and over 106 years, its flaked off. Taking the black outline which was painted on the green, away with it as it disintegrated. From the pics... you can see a remnant of the black outline goiing up plus green color on that side and green color undefined above the star and both sides.

It looks to my eyes like it was complete at one time, just disintegrated over time.

And going back to what I was saying at first, not all paint that is used, is

created equal. Bad batch of green paint for the shield?

Looks like it was there at one time. Complete.

?

I must have inherited some of my dad's colorblindness because I still can't see the green inside the shield, just the black outline.

 

The helmet is a refurb with the sand finish, which is probably the reason the area around the star got smoothed out.  I think a better explanation than a bad batch of green paint is that it was naturally thinner at the top due to gravity, and that area of the helmet has been subject to much more wear than the transition between the dome and the rim.  There might still be a fair bit of the top of the shield lurking in between those grains of sand.

5 hours ago, anton67 said:

Thank you for clarifying.  So the green shield  represents the second supply train.

So it could be an Army second supply train helmet.  Or repurposed Army helmet used in another unit (based on the shield fade/scratched border).  
USMC second supply would have had an EGA.  
 

I just have one more question.

do you think that this is a possibility?

 

Maybe the top was not removed or faded.  If you look closely at my helmet it has a very rough surface.  Maybe that is why it was scratched around the star to make it smooth and easier to paint.   The painter sort have gave up on the top of the shield and painted over the grainy surface.  That is why the top looks like that.  
 

Thoughts?

I agree with others that there appears to have once been a shield outlined with a black line and it appears it could have been green. Rooster and I disagree with the theory as to why the shield is no longer visible. It is a healthy debate with no hard feelings, but my position is this:

 

In looking at literally hundreds of 2nd divisions helmets, photographs and in hand, I just simply have never seen another where the background shape is 95% gone but the star and Indianhead which was painted on top of that shape is still very much present and visible. I just cant imagine a situation where the green shield on this helmet would have just disappeared over time leaving the star Indianhead fully intact. Gravity….nope not buying it. Bad paint,…just haven’t seen any other examples where one color fails leaving the rest of the colors behind. I am  just expressing what I have seen after studying a bunch of these. I also don't recall seeing a border scratched in around the star with the colored geometric  shape around or under that if that makes sense. Sometimes sand finish was removed before painting, but generally it would incorporate BOTH the star and the shape to provide a smooth surface for the whole thing. It remains my opinion that the shield once on this helmet was intentionally removed and then the area around the star scratched in. Why,? Who knows? The most probable explanation once again would be if this helmet was “repurposed” to an Army composite helmet….however the timing is off. The green shield would likely have been painted AFTER the composite helmets were painted in the summer of 1919. Maybe this guy was a late replacement to the composite battalion? Maybe out of expediency, he tried to make the star and indianhead look like others in the unit? It is a long stretch but who knows??? 

 

I feel like I am repeating myself, so I will bow out of this post now. My only hope was to make sure you as the helmet owner had all realistic probabilities before you.  Without a name or more history, you will likely never crack the mystery. Good luck regardless. Kevin

Maybe he was a late replacement, maybe he was in the Composite Regiment, maybe the helmet was repurposed and repainted or maybe someone specifically removed the green while leaving the black outline and sand texture intact.

 

Or maybe the paint is missing from the area where it was most exposed to wear.

 

I can't really differentiate between the shades of green, but I can see the black outline pretty well. It's interesting to note that the outline aligns perfectly with the points of the star, which indicates that the star and the shield were deliberately matched.

 

Proceed with caution...

3 hours ago, Florian-Stawikowski said:

Proceed with caution...

Well good grief that is sure helpful…..did you read any of this thread.? I find it interesting that this is one of 24 back to back one line , and in a few cases, one word posts you made obviously trying to get to the count so you can sell something here. Maybe as a new member, you should try to contribute something with substance?

On 3/23/2024 at 10:33 PM, warguy said:

Just a couple thoughts…..

 

First, I must say I just don't see a shield on the helmet that started the post but perhaps you can see something more definite in hand????

 

Second, the green shield would represent the second supply train. This was a composite unit made up of both Marine and Army personnel. I have seen only one Marine helmet from this unit, and it is depicted in the book “Equipping the Corps”. That helmet has an ega mounted at the bottom of the shield and I would suppose that the few Marines assigned to this unit likely incorporated an ega on their helmet. I think it is safe to say that one of these helmets would be pretty scarce.

 

Third, I am not subscribing to the notion that green paint used in WWI was inferior and that the finish would fail. I have two USMC supply helmets in my collection, a green square and a green diamond and have seen numerous photographs of other supply helmets. While the shades of green may differ, there isn't any evidence that the green paint from that period would fade or fail in some aspect over time.

 

Fourth, be sure to look closely if you do see some shape on the helmet starting this thread. The 9th Infantry of the 2nd division used a pentagon shape behind the star Indianhead and the 23rd Infantry of the second division used a circle. Green for both of these units would indicate supply. Both the 23rd and 9th  were very active fighting along side Marines, and many examples of painted helmets of the various Battalions  of these Army units exist.

 

Continued good luck. 

Having followed this thread I was very interested so I did a little digging on the ID of the name Sherman Hinaman who this helmet featured in equipping the corps belonged to.  As the comments have eluded, the EGA does catch one off guard but I think when you dig on Sherman Hinaman maybe it sheds some light.  Hinaman was a soldier assigned to A Co. 2nd Supply Train but in his obit and articles that appeared about him (he served as a mayor in his town hence why there are longer than usual articles about him) they clearly state he was in the Army in WWI serving with the 2nd Division but they made a point to say he "saw action" with the 5th and 6th Marines (incorrectly id'd as the 5th and 6th Marine divisions in the article).  I am of the opinion that various companies within the 2nd Supply train were delegated out to the various regiments among the 3rd and 4th Brigade and that Co. A probably spent much of the war assigned to support the 4th Brigade much in the same way that the 12th Field Artillery usually supported the 4th Brigade while the 15th Field Artillery supported the 3rd Brigade within the division throughout the war.  I know this was the case with the machine gun battalions of the division.  Certain companies tended to be assigned support to the same battalions of the various brigades/regiments throughout the course of the war.  Assuming that A Co. 2nd Supply Train tended to be the logistical backbone for the 4th Brigade, alot of the army personnel afixed an EGA.  I know for a fact this has been done by soldiers of the various ambulance companies of the 2nd Sanitary train that were assigned to the Marines.  Just a thought.  Attached is some of the info I dug in a brief search about Hinaman.  Hope this might help reinforce what a lot of you all have logically speculated. 

Now that is very interesting! Thank you Kevin. I know you mentioned the example of machine gun companies in support. Have you ever run across say a Fourth Brigade or a 2nd Division HQ helmet/uniform from an Army man that also displayed an ega as they too supported the Marine? I know both Army and Marine personnel served in those units as well.

9 hours ago, devildog34 said:

Having followed this thread I was very interested so I did a little digging on the ID of the name Sherman Hinaman who this helmet featured in equipping the corps belonged to.  As the comments have eluded, the EGA does catch one off guard but I think when you dig on Sherman Hinaman maybe it sheds some light.  Hinaman was a soldier assigned to A Co. 2nd Supply Train but in his obit and articles that appeared about him (he served as a mayor in his town hence why there are longer than usual articles about him) they clearly state he was in the Army in WWI serving with the 2nd Division but they made a point to say he "saw action" with the 5th and 6th Marines (incorrectly id'd as the 5th and 6th Marine divisions in the article).  I am of the opinion that various companies within the 2nd Supply train were delegated out to the various regiments among the 3rd and 4th Brigade and that Co. A probably spent much of the war assigned to support the 4th Brigade much in the same way that the 12th Field Artillery usually supported the 4th Brigade while the 15th Field Artillery supported the 3rd Brigade within the division throughout the war.  I know this was the case with the machine gun battalions of the division.  Certain companies tended to be assigned support to the same battalions of the various brigades/regiments throughout the course of the war.  Assuming that A Co. 2nd Supply Train tended to be the logistical backbone for the 4th Brigade, alot of the army personnel afixed an EGA.  I know for a fact this has been done by soldiers of the various ambulance companies of the 2nd Sanitary train that were assigned to the Marines.  Just a thought.  Attached is some of the info I dug in a brief search about Hinaman.  Hope this might help reinforce what a lot of you all have logically speculated. 

 

56 minutes ago, warguy said:

Now that is very interesting! Thank you Kevin. I know you mentioned the example of machine gun companies in support. Have you ever run across say a Fourth Brigade or a 2nd Division HQ helmet/uniform from an Army man that also displayed an ega as they too supported the Marine? I know both Army and Marine personnel served in those units as well.

 

I have not seen a helmet but I know of an extensive 2nd Sanitary train to a soldier who was with the 15th ambulance CO that wore an EGA on his OS cover and had his Victory medal privately rim engraved with 5th Marines who he was attached to.  I think the overwhelming attention the 4th brigade got in the media coverage throughout the war especially at Belleau Wood incentivized a lot of people to make sure people knew they part of that.  Just my opinion but probable. I had a chance to buy the group but we literally just had a baby and it was not in my financial reach.  I’m kicking myself given the realization I can technically survive with only one kidney and now I wish I’d maybe sold my other one to afford it