Made in the UK in the 80s; also it is not a bullion border- it is really thick, or corded thread. Bullion is always metallic; in some cases, it was painted in colors.

What was the total number of the T- Force patches? Very, very, very, small number correct?

 

 

Paul you are correct that the number is small;my guess less than 100,again just a guess. One of the top dealers handled 40 himself over the years. However the number of Alamo Scouts is less since only 400 or so were made at the time. I just traded a T- Force away for an 8th Air force Russian Shuttle patch which is also very scarce. Mort

Mort,

 

Would that be rarepatchman? BTY, I would love to see the Russian shuttle patch!

 

Thanks,

 

Paul

Mort,

 

Would that be rarepatchman? BTY, I would love to see the Russian shuttle patch!

 

Thanks,

 

Paul

 

 

Hi Paul,

 

Pretty good guess but did not trade with Bill for that rather a fellow Western New York collector/dealer. Over the years have done alot of business with Bill both buying and selling/trading with him. I have 3 of those patches one loose onw on uniform and the large jacket type which is even harder to find. Will make a separate post soon to show. Mort

Mort,

 

Thanks. I really look forward to seeing it, I saw that Bill had both a T-force and Shuttle patch for sale a while back, great stuff. Bill is an excellent dealer, and , unless someone stole his handle , he's on the forum now.

In any case you don't REALLY need three of them.....

 

Paul

Just for reference, here is a good one (although someone will most likely disagree ):

 

Just for reference, here is a good one (although someone will most likely disagree ):

 

No disagreement here, Paul. Nice patch!

Kurt

Here is a real 3133rd Signal Service Company patch (top) and a repro (bottom).

When compared side by side, the differences are quite obvious. What is also sinister is that the maker of this repro also made the 802nd TD patch shown elsewhere on these pages, and he is quite proud of his efforts. For some reason, he tried to make them look German made, when the originals were all US made. I do not know the TO of the company, but in WW II, the typical company was 200 officers and EM. Mine came from a veteran of the 3133rd, and it was issued to him.

 

The most obvious difference on the repro is that the shield with the devil figure is orange, and so is the apex, instead of a yellow apex. Also, every one of the repros always seems to have a wavy border to the edge of the patch. When you compare the devil figures, note the goatee (where it meets the chin) on the repro is cruder and not as detailed. The smile on the repro is too long and it meets the moustache. The teeth are different on the repro and so is the shape of the jaw. On the repro, the horn is larger and longer. Note the size and shape of the eye on the repro differs from that on the original. Also note the fingers on the repro are much more distinct; nota too that the black details that outline the face and hand are somewhat separated from them on the repro rather than forming an actual border. The points of the trident on the repro are very distinct than on the original (imagine that) and the angle of the trident handle on the repros is different and slightly offset than on the original.

 

Here is another example of a "fantasy" patch.

 

The ebay seller, who has been in the business of selling military insignia for 30+ years (I first met him cq. 1976) is surprisingly vague as to its authenticity in the listing. Of course, this patch is depicted in his book - and one of the reasons it caught my eye is that it is misidentified. It is not a TD battalion, and is one of a number of misidentified patches in his book.

 

Based on a SC photograph, and an interview with a reunion coordinator who was admittedly too busy to help me, the patch is actually that of the 489th AAA AW Bn (S-P). It is a Disney design.

 

This seller, and others, offer these and rarely initially admit the patches were made recently (late 1990s, early 2000+). The patches are noted for being on very thin felt, nice embroidery, and are always Disney designs.

 

MBpatches is exceptionally honest, and sells them as repros/fantasies, for reasonable prices. It might be worth it to pick one up from him and use it as a reference.

 

I have seen the following Disney designs, made in a similar fashion, for:

 

701st Tank Bn

714th Tank Bn

751st Tank Bn

12th Armored Div

13th Armored Div

 

(Jim B, notice a pattern?)

Armor triangles - a subject I enjoy collecting and writing about.

 

Most separate tank battalions were not authorized patches (Armor Force) with their battalion numbers added. However, on occupation duty, many former tanker had their battalion numbers added. This was done in metal numbers (rarely), or by hand or sewing machine, more commonly.

 

However, this was not necessarily done en masse, or by an entire battalion, by an entire company, with rare exception (the 740th comes to mind).

 

In any case, collectors have sought these for 60+ years. As scarce as they were (are), there were those dealers who had the numbers sewn into the apexes of the Armor Force patches. The late Jack Britton was one, and he made no bones that these were made for collectors, because he knew how rare the originals were.

 

I visited him at his "home office" and was surprised to see not only how many different battalions he had available for sale, and how many of each battalion!

 

In any case, most armor patches with genuine numbers do not look like the patches depicted here. I am conflicted as to depicting some real ones, as the crooks are reading this site, too. I had the advantage of collecting begiing in the 50s and a lot of vets were alive then. Today, it pays to know your dealers or know your unit histories. Most post WW II armored units (tank battalions or armored field artillery) did not have numbers authorized either, so that is something else to look out for.

 

As away of finding some common ground with younger collectors - those of you who like wearing baseball type caps may note that the logo often has some white, flimsy paper-like material to which the logo is embroidered on the inside of the crown. This is also done for embroidery on shirts and jackets. This white flimsy material is known as a "stabilizer". It is necessary so the embroidery doesn't become unraveled - today's machines do not use very high stitch counts.

 

In any case, here are some types of armor triangles with added numbers, made for collectors.

 

The "82nd Tank Bn" or "82nd Rcn Bn" has newspaper as a stabilizer.

 

The "215th Tank Bn" uses some wide gauze as a stabilizer.

 

The "717th Tank Bn" has the gauze stabilizer trimmed down.

Here ia another repro armor triangle...for a unit that never existed!

 

Note how the sides are pinched - another giveaway that the numbers are added.

 

There is glue residue on the back of the patch directly over the numbers, so I chose not to depict it.

In the case of the late Jack Britton, he did not con anyone. He always said that he had had these made up because he knew the originals were so scarce. He also knew that many collectors buy items like to his because they either "liked collecting patches" or wanted to "fill holes" until a real one came around. I am not opposed to repros - it would nice if they could be marked as such and sold as such - but since that is impossible, the best we can do is show newer collectors. Many collectors are happy with them because they don't want to pay the prices that originals command today.

 

There are many new collectors today who did not know of Jack Britton, so they couldn't know his philosphy. There are also a lot of new dealers who don't know their merchandise for one reason or another. I mean, many of these patches were made in the 70s, which in some cases means they are 35 years old and look old.....

 

Now, as far as the fake XVIII patch goes,, well, yeah, whomever made this one should be shot!

It's a very good idea to post these on our Fakes and Reproduction Patches link, so that others can use them to compare them to future possible acquistions - not just these, but other unit patches as well.

Just like the Nuernberg War Crimes Trial patch that was on Ebay till today. I thought I red in this forum that the only WWII originals were German made bullions, and yet - some guy has them listed as original WWII and last time I checked the patch was at 131 Dollars.

Has anyone seen that auction or am I wrong with my opinion?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1

Even though it's stated that rarepatchman looked over them ... I'm confused.

Anyone got some advise?

 

 

I hope to be of some help;the Nurnberg War Trails patch in question is US manufacture post war, most likely for collectors and are in themselves somewhat rare. No one knows more than rarepatchman. All they are saying is that this is a period made patch just like those made for collectors and vets of airborne pocket patches,etc. You are correct in saying that the patches for the trial that were worn at the actual trial and jail were made in Germany most of which were bullion;but there were also felt and chainstitch types that were worn. The US version in question has gone for 250 to 280 in most auctions. The bullion if real should be 1200 and up in price. From what I have seen the items offered by lostmoose are good pieces and rarepatchman would not let someone use his name if not on the level. Mort

Here's another patch made for collectors. It just sold on ebay for $250+.

 

My expertise is not WW I, but I have some basic knowledge of WW I patches, and I wanted to point this out to our readers.

 

The patch is for the 46th Air Park. Note that the black background is sewn to an OD background, and that letters AP are sewn to the black part. The numerals 46 look as if they glow w/o benefit of a black light.

 

This was either a good Air Park patch, and some goofball added the numerals recently, or the patch is entirely fake. The "46th Air Park" may not have even existed.

 

Wool on wool is the easiest to fake. Novice collectors should also know that physical therapy for wounded WW I doughs, into the 1920s, consisted of them making patches and sewing them to blankets. Wool on wool was the chosen material.

 

I apologize for not having a good Air Park patch for comparison, but since there were no manufacturer's specifications in WW I, there is tremendous variance in styles. I don't want someone to think that the only patch used for comparision is the only "good version". Perhaps some of our members have good examples of these patches.

ok here are my post watch out for cheap 506th airborne fakes look:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...?showtopic=7213

ok here are my post watch out for cheap 506th airborne fakes look:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...?showtopic=7213

That patch is an obvious reproduction. I have posted on this forum (several times now) what ID'd original WWII 506th pocket patches do & should look like.

Dave, I've seem that one go for big bucks, do you (or anyone) have a any Jingpaw and Kachin (sp?) Rangers patches, they sell for big bucks too and I know there are very few originals

 

July 28, 2007

 

Paul,

 

I'll try and tackle this although I'm no extert on the subject of Jingpaw and Kachin Ranger patches. My interest in Jingpaw Ranger patches goes back many years after I got to know former Col. Carl F. Eifler who commmanded the first OSS operational group called Detachment 101 in Burma. Dr. Eifler did not know anything about the Jingpaw Ranger shoulder patch but I did see his "Burma Bar" amongst his medals on the wall of his den. A number of years ago I saw an original Jingpaw Ranger shoulder patch for sale with an accompanying letter from the veteran who owned the patch which was being sold by a current member of this forum. The letter was written by Walter A. Berge Jr. who served with Detachment 101, OSS. I sort of confirmed this as Walter A. Berge Jr. is listed as being a member of Detachment 101 in the back of the book titled, "The Deadlist Colonel" by Thomas N. Moon and Carl F. Eifler. I couldn't afford the steep asking price for this patch back then but I did take photographs of the patch and letter. After developing the photographs (no digital photos back then) I compared them with my Jingpaw Ranger shoulder patch and found some minor differences. I found out that my patch was the ones made up in the 70s even though it passes the thread burn test and black light test. I have since found an original Jingpaw Ranger patch. Later I purchased an original modified Jingpaw Ranger patch from the mentioned member of this forum. If you look at the side by side comparison with the original on the right and the copy on the left you notice the letter "G" is different. The original patches have a "G" with has a short downward tip that the copies do not have. I confirmed this by looking at an original modified Jingpaw Ranger patch on a hat that was on display many years ago at the Special Forces Museum, North Carolina. Some other differences are the width of the white catch threads on the back with the orignals being of shorter width. I don't think that the Kachin Ranger patch was ever issued. I think this has to do with the word Kachin which is an older term for the Jingpaws that they hate because it is like calling an African American the "N" word. The Burmese and British called them Kachins but they preferred to be called Jingpaw. I've attached some poor photos of a member of Detachment 101 wearing the modified patch on the front of his cap as well as a Jingpaw wearing one on the shoulder of his uniform.

 

More photos to follow.

 

Dennis

July 28, 2007

 

Paul,

 

I'll try and tackle this although I'm no extert on the subject of Jingpaw and Kachin Ranger patches. My interest in Jingpaw Ranger patches goes back many years after I got to know former Col. Carl F. Eifler who commmanded the first OSS operational group called Detachment 101 in Burma. Dr. Eifler did not know anything about the Jingpaw Ranger shoulder patch but I did see his "Burma Bar" amongst his medals on the wall of his den. A number of years ago I saw an original Jingpaw Ranger shoulder patch for sale with an accompanying letter from the veteran who owned the patch which was being sold by a current member of this forum. The letter was written by Walter A. Berge Jr. who served with Detachment 101, OSS. I sort of confirmed this as Walter A. Berge Jr. is listed as being a member of Detachment 101 in the back of the book titled, "The Deadlist Colonel" by Thomas N. Moon and Carl F. Eifler. I couldn't afford the steep asking price for this patch back then but I did take photographs of the patch and letter. After developing the photographs (no digital photos back then) I compared them with my Jingpaw Ranger shoulder patch and found some minor differences. I found out that my patch was the ones made up in the 70s even though it passes the thread burn test and black light test. I have since found an original Jingpaw Ranger patch. Later I purchased an original modified Jingpaw Ranger patch from the mentioned member of this forum. If you look at the side by side comparison with the original on the right and the copy on the left you notice the letter "G" is different. The original patches have a "G" with has a short downward tip that the copies do not have. I confirmed this by looking at an original modified Jingpaw Ranger patch on a hat that was on display many years ago at the Special Forces Museum, North Carolina. Some other differences are the width of the white catch threads on the back with the orignals being of shorter width. I don't think that the Kachin Ranger patch was ever issued. I think this has to do with the word Kachin which is an older term for the Jingpaws that they hate because it is like calling an African American the "N" word. The Burmese and British called them Kachins but they preferred to be called Jingpaw. I've attached some poor photos of a member of Detachment 101 wearing the modified patch on the front of his cap as well as a Jingpaw wearing one on the shoulder of his uniform.

 

More photos to follow.

 

Dennis

 

Additional photos

 

Dennis

Additional photos

 

Dennis

 

Last photo is a close up of the letter dated September 25, 1980 by Walter A. Berge Jr. who owned the original Jingpaw Ranger patch.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Dennis

This insignia has been posted previously on the Forum.

 

I do have one disagreement w/ Dennis re: whether these patches were issued. In addition to the example illustrated here, racial opinions of the 1940s were not as open minded as we are, or are supposed to be, today. There were several AAF patches that had caricatures of "Negroes", usually in some type of jungle garb, that were worn. In some case, these insignia were drawn by major film studios. I have a photo of a C-47 with an offensive name painted in large letters on the fuselage.

 

In any case, the back of my patch, which I have had for 30 + years (not directly from a vet) looks exactly like the Jingpaw illustrated in the previous post

This insignia has been posted previously on the Forum.

 

I do have one disagreement w/ Dennis re: whether these patches were issued. In addition to the example illustrated here, racial opinions of the 1940s were not as open minded as we are, or are supposed to be, today. There were several AAF patches that had caricatures of "Negroes", usually in some type of jungle garb, that were worn. In some case, these insignia were drawn by major film studios. I have a photo of a C-47 with an offensive name painted in large letters on the fuselage.

 

In any case, the back of my patch, which I have had for 30 + years (not directly from a vet) looks exactly like the Jingpaw illustrated in the previous post

 

Your patch has got to be super rare as I've never come across a modified Kachin Ranger patch in 20 plus years of collecting. Great patch and thanks for the information.

 

Dennis

Here is a informative website about reproduction patches .

 

http://www.insigne.org/Fakes-I.htm

Fake 82nd

backside you can see good the synthetic treads there