Acquired a FS Commando Pattern 3 knife. It was not sold to me as a "Fatman". Have suspicions it is because it measure 7/8" dia at it's widest point with a micrometer. The handle is flush with the cross guard edge. There is a triangular flat at the cross guard on one side of the blade. Has 1/8" thick x 5/8" wide x 2" long cross guard. Blade is 6-3/4" long with no machine marks visible, Handle/pommel is 4-3/4" long. Overall length 11-1/2". There is a #1 below the pommel. There is a faint broad arrow below the guard. The guard is stamped ENGLAND. The pattern 3 is noticeably heavier than my Pattern 2 and the handle is larger in diameter. Do you think it is a "Fatman"?   

In the bottom picture:

 

1. The knife on the left (knurled handle) is a 2nd pattern "All Black" (some collectors call it this, I haven't found any record of it as an official name, perhaps that it has no Wilkinson "etch" on the ricasso, though it is Wilkinson made.)  

The knife pictured in the OP is 100% not a "Fatman"

It's not a bad example of an honest second pattern, the blade has been shortened and re-tipped this hurts value.

 

This page has some good images of "Fatman" style knives - https://www.fairbairnsykesfightingknives.com/fatman-knives.html

 

2. The knife on right (cast handle) is a wartime 3rd pattern (last wartime iteration) - in decent shape, the blade looks like an earlier hand drawn style. That doesn't seem to affect price. Some collectors like them more, and they are nicer quality blades than the "machine made" later blades - that have horizontal machine lines usually.

There may be a mold number, 1-4 on the top of handle, denoting which of the four gang molds the knife handle was cast from.

 

Third patterns don't get a lot of love, but, they're a good collectable, and can still be found relatively affordably.

Here is a nice page from the same site - https://www.fairbairnsykesfightingknives.com/third-pattern.html

dcollector: The pattern 2  was acquired some time ago. I only included it for comparison to the Pattern 3. BTW, both blades measure 6-3/4".

 

My interest at this time is about the F-S pattern 3, and if it is a "Fatman". I once read where the "Fatman" was referred to as a 7/8.  I measured the handle at the widest point and it is 7/8".  Does this measurement imply it is a "Fatman"? Sorry for any confusion. 

 

Yes. The website you mentioned is where I read 7/8 is referred to as a "Fatman" possibly? Anyone else in agreement on this?

 

The "FAT MAN" gets its name from the shape of the handle and pommel. Its very different from the 2nd pattern posted in the topic

here is the page with very clear pictures of the Fat Man grip style

 

https://www.fairbairnsykesfightingknives.com/fatman-knives.html

 

"FAT MAN/ FAT BOY" left standard 2nd pattern on the right

 

 

the noticeable lack of taper toward the pommel on the grip. As the article states the normal 2nd Pattern has more of a Coke bottle shape compared to the more tubular FAT MAN

 

2 hours ago, VNAMVET70 said:

My interest at this time is about the F-S pattern 3, and if it is a "Fatman". 

 

I apologize, I presumed you were referring to the 2nd pattern you showed.

 

There are no 3rd pattern "Fatman" knives.

58 minutes ago, dcollector said:

 

I apologize, I presumed you were referring to the 2nd pattern you showed.

 

There are no 3rd pattern "Fatman" knives.

Thank you for the responses. I was searching the internet to no avail trying to find information if there was such a thing as a F-S "Fatman" Pattern 3. ...Wild Goose Chase. It is hard to find information about something that never was. LOL    

1 hour ago, VNAMVET70 said:

 It is hard to find information about something that never was. LOL    

 

Well not in my neck of the woods! 🥴

Further to the subject of information on something...

 

Wartime the third patterns had their handles made in gang molds of 4 - they are numbered by a matrix number at the top of the handle 1-4.

As such the handles are identical, for all intents, the mold has a seam down the side, though during wartime, the workmanship was of quite a high standard, and the seams would have been methodically polished out. and are almost unnoticeable.

After the war, the seams were left fairly messy, and it's a good indicator of a post war knife - as well as missing the numbered handle.

 

The blades on wartime 3rd pattern FS knives did vary a little.

i. hand drawn.

ii. hand drawn and etched with the Wilkinson Factory marking (quite rare)

iii. machine finished - usually has quite rough horizontal machine marks

 

I'm sure some folks here may know of other variants of wartime 3rd pattern, but these are all I have encountered.

*Probably a name engraved one somewhere, but it's mainly private purchase 2nd patterns that seem to be named engraved at the Wilkinson store.

 

1. Some Hand drawn blades.

(Three 2nds and a 3rd pattern(

 

Some machine finished blades:

Two third patterns and a so called RAF issue knife.

 

I guess those fellow's Fairbairn and Sykes were openly contemptuous of the third pattern, and thought pretty poorly of it.

They apparently stated this - one or both of them, I don't recall, and as such the third doesn't get as much love as the 2nd or 1st pattern daggers.

But, it's a genuine WW2 fighting knife, issued to commandos and special forces and represents their history now, if not the knife making standards and tastes of the men who it is named after.

 

 

 

 

Apparently there were no strict guidelines for FS Pattern 2 knives. I read "the 2nd Patterns total blade length from tip to shoulder tends to vary from 6" to 7.1". The original Wilkinson production drawings from October 1942 allowed a tolerance of 6.75" to 7". Why someone would say my 2nd Pattern with a 6.75" blade length has been shortened is beyond me. The knife in question retains most of it's finish and does not appear re-tipped. Here is a better photo of it. I would like to know from the experts what they think. I have no special feelings for this knife so feel free to be honest in your assessment. I'm a beginner but a quick learner. Today, I ordered the book "The Fairbairn- Sykes Fighting Knife and other Commando Knives: Ron Flook over 260 pages, to help me get up to speed. A Pattern 1 is in my future and I want to get it right the first time.  

On 8/7/2022 at 5:05 PM, dcollector said:

 

I apologize, I presumed you were referring to the 2nd pattern you showed.

 

There are no 3rd pattern "Fatman" knives.

 

agreed.

 

Also FAT MAN is more of a collectors term to category  and item thats different

4 hours ago, VNAMVET70 said:

Apparently there were no strict guidelines for FS Pattern 2 knives. I read "the 2nd Patterns total blade length from tip to shoulder tends to vary from 6" to 7.1". The original Wilkinson production drawings from October 1942 allowed a tolerance of 6.75" to 7". Why someone would say my 2nd Pattern with a 6.75" blade length has been shortened is beyond me. The knife in question retains most of it's finish and does not appear re-tipped. Here is a better photo of it. I would like to know from the experts what they think. I have no special feelings for this knife so feel free to be honest in your assessment. I'm a beginner but a quick learner. Today, I ordered the book "The Fairbairn- Sykes Fighting Knife and other Commando Knives: Ron Flook over 260 pages, to help me get up to speed. A Pattern 1 is in my future and I want to get it right the first time.  

 

 

My take on the differences is fairly simple and straight forward. Variance in blade length can be often attributed to a couple of things.

 

Being the early knives were hand made ground and sharpened length will be not always be identical. Granted they worked with in a limit to the design but being hand ground and made not every knife will be the exact same. 

 

Another reason is the tips were quite fine and would break or round easily. If this happened the tip would be reshaped. Also as these were very sharp the point could be rounded or shortened by the owner to make the tip less point and keep it from piercing the scabbard or the owner. Take the Cave V42 which had a very fine point. They were often broken as well as deliberately blunted to keep from cutting the scabbard and sticking the owner. Its been documented that the tip was so sharp it would also stick in bone when used and hard to extract the blade.

here is a 2nd pattern I own that belonged to an original Darbys Ranger. He had served with the 34th Division pre war and when the unit was Federalized was with them when they went to Northern Ireland. While in Northern Ireland, General Hartle was tasked with organizing an American version of the British Commandos and promoted his aide-de-camp, Captain William Orlando Darby to lead the new unit.] Darby assembled volunteers, and of the first 500 U.S. Army Rangers, 281 came from the 34th Infantry Division. The men were trained by and at the Commando school and were issued the knives in training. Later this vet saw action in North Africa and was severly wounded during the Sened Station Raid. 

 

His knife is unmarked except for the B2 on the cross guard. 

 

 

Couple other examples I have

 

A 2nd and 3rd pattern.

 

Second pattern is B2 and arrow marked and England over stamped. Third pattern is only marked England.

 

Doyler - That is a lovely one, and the provenance from Derby's Rangers is terrific, what a great piece of history. 

And relevant to this forum as genuine USMilitaria.

100% agree on the names "All Black" "Fatman" are collector or dealer coined.

My main interest in the "Fatman" is that is most likely wasn't a Wilkinson knife, but an unknown manufacturer, potentially LF&C, which makes it interesting.

 

VNAMVET70 - yours is a nice honest 2nd pattern, nothing to be concerned about. 

I probably shouldn't have mentioned it, it wasn't what you were asking

But as you do now ask:

In your first post in the third pic of the two knives side by side, the tip "shape" and "finish" appear shortened, it may not be of course.

Half of my collection of 2nd Patterns show some type of tip refinish..

2nd patterns were REALLY elegantly made, the blades as they left the factory were needle sharp and not very practical, and broke or bent.

They have a quite distinct sillouhette.

When you see enough fresh, original tip 2nd patterns, the re-tipped ones become a little more obvious.

I'm probably wrong about yours, as Doyler correctly suggests, there is a certain variance to be expected in any hand-crafted object, we can move on from that.

ENGLAND marked FS knives were likely never issued, taken from stocks, refurbished and sent to the US post war, they were sold mail order and at camping shops. The tips broke often as they were not meant for throwing, or camping.

However, when they became $500+ knives amazingly tips appeared again and a dab of cold blue hid the work.

 

I'm no expert, just a collector who owns a number of them, so take my opinion as nothing else, but the opinion of a novice.

 

The 1st pattern is an awesome knife, and a great collectable, you should add one to your collection.

I was lucky enough to find two at different vendors on my current trip to the UK, I bought one, but cannot afford the second.

(It is at JCMilitaria, he has it at 3500 GBP.)

They seem to turn up with about the same regularity as V42's in the US but are a little less expensive. 

 

The one I just bought is my fifth and the best quality of all of mine (I'll post pics when it arrives).

Here are pics of my first four, as you can see, I started collecting them with VERY worn out examples, I'm not rich, lol.

These four 1st's were not refurbished from stores supplies for the US, but were actual issue British commando knives (some with provenance.)

 

*I have no idea why the three blades look like used tent pegs, I've discussed the heavy wear found on 1st Patterns compared to second patterns and no one has a real answer, except that the blades weren't blued or finished, and were issued early in the war so saw more years of wartime abuse than the  2nd or 3rd patterns. 

 

 

 

dcollector, that you are. Again magnificent collection. My last visit I was not interested in British knives at the time. This next visit will be about purchasing F-S P-1's. Want etching and 2" guard. Any suggestions  on prospecting, conversion exchange, cash, green backs, travel, laws, shops, vendors. Last time I visited London, Travalgar arranged all my itinerary: 747, hotels (5-star),  daily tours, etc. May use them again. What about bringing knives back on the plane? Thanks

17 hours ago, VNAMVET70 said:

dcollector, that you are. Again magnificent collection. My last visit I was not interested in British knives at the time. This next visit will be about purchasing F-S P-1's. Want etching and 2" guard. Any suggestions  on prospecting, conversion exchange, cash, green backs, travel, laws, shops, vendors. Last time I visited London, Travalgar arranged all my itinerary: 747, hotels (5-star),  daily tours, etc. May use them again. What about bringing knives back on the plane? Thanks

I am here on work, so I don't get involved with much of the logistics, others with more intellect and patience do that.

 

The dollar is strong right now, as strong as I've ever experienced. Which is somewhat pleasant for us US collectors.

 

JCMilitaria, John the owner, is helpful and often has items in stock that are not on his site - I bought a First from him.

Super fast shipping, beautifully packaged.

 

Barton Militaria, 5 Cecil Court, London - I bought a First here.

They have a great collection and even though they're in one of the most expensive locations, their militaria is reasonably priced.

There is another medal shop on Cecil Court that sometimes has knives, a fellow collector (Ivan at First Pattern Militaria) bought a spanking condition first pattern from him.

Also check in regularly on First pattern militaria, Ivan often get's first patterns in.

 

https://firstpatternmilitaria.com/home.php

 

Try to do some gun shows (militaria fairs), I did one, with four First Patterns, another had none.

 

You might try Gunstar or milweb, too, lot's of vendors and private sellers.

 

I will also 100% recommend my good friend, John Hamilton, an ex-Royal Marine Commando who is now making handmade commando daggers, he has craftsmen working for him who used to work for Wilkinson and has embraced the old ways, I own five of his knives and they are... STUNNING.

His First pattern is a work of art.

(As he is working actively with SBS and Commando special units his knives cross the threshold of "reproduction" and active issue, We know for a fact several have been private purchase items which have seen action. So, I post here at my own risk.)

 

https://www.h-d-g.co.uk

 

Watch out for Indian copies, I saw two at one show, they were "first patterns" with a stamped "etch" and misspelled - they are getting better and better.

Both fakes were half what an original should be, so the sellers knew, but were playing dumb - hoping to catch a newbie.

 

The UK has tough laws against carrying a knife obviously (we've all heard), but, the antique shops here will wrap it securely and tape it up, and it's in your bag/back pack with sales receipt, you're fine - just leave it in your luggage in the hotel room once you you get it there.

The police have never given me a problem.

 

I bring my knives back in my stowed luggage, obviously not carry on. Never had an issue.

 

Don't be tempted to buy a UK deactivated gun, they're totally welded up, but the receivers are not cut so, even though they're inert, they're a no-go for US importation.

 

I just picked up a dainty little William Rodgers yesterday, possibly a private purchase possibly a little post-war the design stayed pretty consistent.

It was very cheap and in the second hand store opposite the hotel, I popped in 5 minutes before they closed.

 

 

Good luck!

 

 

dcollector, Thank you for taking the time to list places to shop for P-1's in the UK.  Added your suggestions to my list so I can hit the ground shopping. LOL. If you have time may I suggest visiting Windsor Castle's War Room. On the walls are hundreds of swords and daggers. On the upper walls are knives mounted in  daisy patterns. See photo.

These patterns are often overlooked but were purchased by WW2 servicemen. One belonged to a 5p8th PIR surgeon and the other to a 113th Cavalry veteran. Have seen various Sheffield makers markings on them. Curious if they were produced by a firm and then marked to the vendor.

 

THis image I ran across and had posted before shows a wartime picture of knives that had been issued to the Home Guard.

 

 

 

Those are two  really nice historically significant examples, Doyler,

 

Yes, I usually see them marked with one (or all of) the following words in some configuration - though some knives are unmarked, or the "etch" on the blade has been rubbed off:

William Rodgers ~ I cut my way (sometimes with the image of an eye) ~ (made in) Sheffield (England)