Good evening,

 

I’m working on an M16A1 build and I wanted to source a solid Vietnam era sling. I picked this guy up the other day and the previous owner was very sure that it’s period correct but I wanted to ask everyone here for further info or pointers. I know that they were used for decades on the Garand, M14, M16 and maybe others but this material seemed to be a lot tougher than what I’ve seen before and what I have on my Garand. Not tough in a bad way but more rigid and with a tighter weave. I’ve seen new production repro slings and this seems way different but you never know. 
 

Thanks for any insight!

 

-Ryan

This is the nylon 'seatbelt sling', which is period correct for the latter part of Vietnam. As far as I recall, the earliest issue date was 1969 with deliveries in 1970. I've seen these with paper wrappers dated 1970 and 71 recently at a show.

used on both on the M14 and M16

23 hours ago, milsurp_scout_14 said:

This is the nylon 'seatbelt sling', which is period correct for the latter part of Vietnam. As far as I recall, the earliest issue date was 1969 with deliveries in 1970. I've seen these with paper wrappers dated 1970 and 71 recently at a show.

 Excellent, thank you for the info. 

Which type of M16a1 build are you doing? If your doing duckbill flash hider, I recommend you ditch the seatbelt sling and get a cotton one. If your doing bird cage, then nylon will work best. Plus, many soldiers hated the nylon slings. Cotton slings made for the m16a1 are getting hard to fine but, I will link a sight that has some originals for sale. Also, there are two kinds of nylon and two kinds of cotton slings that were used. For nylon, there's regular nylon slings aka seatbelt slings. Then there is a rarer nylon sling with zinc plated parts. For cotton, you have your od green cotton slings and then you have the rare tan slings which saw action in the early years of the war. 

 

https://www.armynavysales.com/gi-vietnam-era-nylon-m16-sling-with-zinc-plated-parts.html

 

https://www.armynavysales.com/gi-vietnam-m14-m16-sling.html

 

Top link is for the zinc plated sling, bottom link is for the od green cotton sling. Both slings are 100% original, and are made for the m16a1. I could not find an original tan cotton sling as they are very rare to find. 

8 minutes ago, LE LOUP DES MERS said:

Top link is for the zinc plated sling, bottom link is for the od green cotton sling. Both slings are 100% original, and are made for the m16a1. I could not find an original tan cotton sling as they are very rare to find. 

Cool, thanks for sharing! My Colt parts kit looks to be from the 70’s so it’s just a normal M16A1 build. I’m sticking with the A1 bird cage flash hider, tear drop forward assist and obviously no brass deflector. So I think my sling should go well. Also digging the manual that you shared last year. 😁
 

I do have another period specific question… My kit came with a “Type E” A1 buttstock with the trapdoor. I’ve been afforded the opportunity to get a non-trapdoor A1 buttstock. I should have photos and details this evening to determine exactly which type it is.

 

BUT… If my build is from the 70’s, should I just stick with the trapdoor buttstock to keep it correct?

 

Thanks for the assistance!

It’s rough but this is that I have for the buttstock right now. 

If you want to go period correct then trap door, because your doing bird cage flash hider, trap door will be the accurate one. The buttstock that just had the rubber pad was only used with the duckbill flash hider. Now, I could be wrong but I'm 99% sure that all the mid to late war m16s that had the bird cage flash hider all had trap door buttstocks. Rubber buttstocks were used in the early parts of Vietnam then we're eventually replaced by the trap door. This video is kinda long but it breaks down the different M16 type designs used in the Vietnam war. This video should definitely help you. 

 

 

I also recommend you get a colt receiver if your wanting to make your M16 as accurate as possible. And make sure your buttstock is for the a1 and not the a2 as most people often do. As far as the lower receiver goes the most accurate you could be would be a reweld. It's 100% legal, you take colt demilled lowers and you weld the lower with a semi auto lower. I'll post a photo of the demilled part I'm taking about. 

3 hours ago, LE LOUP DES MERS said:

I also recommend you get a colt receiver if your wanting to make your M16 as accurate as possible. And make sure your buttstock is for the a1 and not the a2 as most people often do. As far as the lower receiver goes the most accurate you could be would be a reweld. It's 100% legal, you take colt demilled lowers and you weld the lower with a semi auto lower. I'll post a photo of the demilled part I'm taking about. 

 

 

Legal? Yes

Possible? Yes

Smart? No....

 

DOD standards, at least in 1986, required that the lowers be sheared once through the center of the trigger opening. A lot of lowers that had this done were cracked, which would need repaired. Now they are cut with a torch so you may have to deal with warping. YMMV. They are cut three times with a torch and center section  is melted.  You would be using just the mag well and would need to sacrifice an extra lower and find someone willing to reweld it.  J.R. Stemple would do it but he is long dead....

 

Difficult to weld. 6061 aluminum can be welded and look nice, however these lowers have seen trauma, and will have cracks, and warps. Mag wells always seem to be FUBAR'd. Would need a jig mate properly with a sacrificial receiver. Brownells, Nodakspud(bought out by PSA), older colt SP1 would give you a correctish rear half (at that point just add markings to the repo lower, a Colt SP1 would be worth more than a reweld so that would be a major financial blunder) . An 80% lower would be your best bet, but once again just apply markings and resist the urge to drill a third hole.

Depending on how the sacrificial lower was cut and the demilled lower was cleaned up, you may have tolerance issues depending on curf loss and need to add material to fit back right. Refinishing won't be a problem, many places offer a repark that would match. However, it is still possible for the lower to crack or rip along the seam of the weld, or parts of the lower deform/warp more from heat from the reweld. 

 

So what I am saying is, you can do it, its been done, but its cheaper and much more practical to buy a repo lower and roll with it. Your going to be putting at least 4 times what a repo lower would cost and its going to be a pain to find someone to reweld it. A finished Brownells A1 lower is 150+FFL fees/shipping. So around 200 bucks for the lower. If you go to resell, the rifle built with a Brownells or Nodak lower with markings applied will always be an easier sell than a reweld. YMMV

 

 

 

Yeah you could apply the markings yourself on a 80% lower but applying the markings don't look as good as getting one properly done, in my opinion anyway. I guess it just depends on what someones budget is. But, I'll agree with you on the reweld, I was just saying that it would be the most accurate option. But, best bet is to by a colt lower or colt m16a1 lookalike lower. However, colt lowers are not cheap so you will be spending at least $400-$1000+ for a complete colt lower.

Thanks for the info on the trap door. I figured that it was correct for the 1970 and newer M16A1’s. Here’s the site that I was originally referencing. Great info but no real dates. 
 

https://armamentresearch.com/variations-in-early-ar-15-m16-rifle-buttstocks/
 

As for the lower… that ship has sailed. I’ll alway keep my eye out for Colt lowers but I know my limits and I know how financially invested I want to be. I have a Colt LE6920 lower that I’ll be using for this build. I won’t be trying to bamboozle anyone but having a pony on the side will give me the smile that I need. 
 

This build essentially started when I lusted  after the Windham A1 Government. Cool looking (not exactly correct) M16A1 new production rifle. Then I found real Colt A1 parts kits and realized that I could be in a cooler rifle for about the same price. 

8 minutes ago, Ryan Reese said:

Thanks for the info on the trap door. I figured that it was correct for the 1970 and newer M16A1’s. Here’s the site that I was originally referencing. Great info but no real dates. 
 

https://armamentresearch.com/variations-in-early-ar-15-m16-rifle-buttstocks/
 

As for the lower… that ship has sailed. I’ll alway keep my eye out for Colt lowers but I know my limits and I know how financially invested I want to be. I have a Colt LE6920 lower that I’ll be using for this build. I won’t be trying to bamboozle anyone but having a pony on the side will give me the smile that I need. 
 

This build essentially started when I lusted  after the Windham A1 Government. Cool looking (not exactly correct) M16A1 new production rifle. Then I found real Colt A1 parts kits and realized that I could be in a cooler rifle for about the same price. 

Did that YouTube video help on explaining the different m16s? 

38 minutes ago, TurdFerguson said:

 

 

Legal? Yes

Possible? Yes

Smart? No....

 

DOD standards, at least in 1986, required that the lowers be sheared once through the center of the trigger opening. A lot of lowers that had this done were cracked, which would need repaired. Now they are cut with a torch so you may have to deal with warping. YMMV. They are cut three times with a torch and center section  is melted.  You would be using just the mag well and would need to sacrifice an extra lower and find someone willing to reweld it.  J.R. Stemple would do it but he is long dead....

 

Difficult to weld. 6061 aluminum can be welded and look nice, however these lowers have seen trauma, and will have cracks, and warps. Mag wells always seem to be FUBAR'd. Would need a jig mate properly with a sacrificial receiver. Brownells, Nodakspud(bought out by PSA), older colt SP1 would give you a correctish rear half (at that point just add markings to the repo lower, a Colt SP1 would be worth more than a reweld so that would be a major financial blunder) . An 80% lower would be your best bet, but once again just apply markings and resist the urge to drill a third hole.

Depending on how the sacrificial lower was cut and the demilled lower was cleaned up, you may have tolerance issues depending on curf loss and need to add material to fit back right. Refinishing won't be a problem, many places offer a repark that would match. However, it is still possible for the lower to crack or rip along the seam of the weld, or parts of the lower deform/warp more from heat from the reweld. 

 

So what I am saying is, you can do it, its been done, but its cheaper and much more practical to buy a repo lower and roll with it. Your going to be putting at least 4 times what a repo lower would cost and its going to be a pain to find someone to reweld it. A finished Brownells A1 lower is 150+FFL fees/shipping. So around 200 bucks for the lower. If you go to resell, the rifle built with a Brownells or Nodak lower with markings applied will always be an easier sell than a reweld. YMMV

 

 

 

You’re right. The lower was never really part of the equation and I won’t loose any sleep at night. I always keep a couple PSA stealth lowers sitting around just in case I need to build something real quick. 😁

 

On another note, I’ve always thought the PSA “US GOVT PROPERTY” marked lowers we’re cool. I’ve used a couple of the M4 ones and they’re a cool conversation piece. I’ve seen them for “M4”, “M4A1” and now they have the “M16A4” version out. But I’ve never seen “M16A1” or “M16A2”. Could the A1 and A2 name be owned by Colt? I know multiple manufacturers make the M4’s and M16A4’s so they could be different. 

19 minutes ago, LE LOUP DES MERS said:

Did that YouTube video help on explaining the different m16s? 

I clicked on it but I’ll have to dive in when I have some more time. I always knew there was a lot more history to the M16’s before the A1’s but 90% of the variation and fun facts actually come before the A1. 

Use this for reference Retro Black Rifle

  

 

1 hour ago, Ryan Reese said:

You’re right. The lower was never really part of the equation and I won’t loose any sleep at night. I always keep a couple PSA stealth lowers sitting around just in case I need to build something real quick. 😁

 

On another note, I’ve always thought the PSA “US GOVT PROPERTY” marked lowers we’re cool. I’ve used a couple of the M4 ones and they’re a cool conversation piece. I’ve seen them for “M4”, “M4A1” and now they have the “M16A4” version out. But I’ve never seen “M16A1” or “M16A2”. Could the A1 and A2 name be owned by Colt? I know multiple manufacturers make the M4’s and M16A4’s so they could be different. 

Cloners. Not as many people cloning early rifles. Its easier to just buy an SP1 that's close than to build one. The issue with the early sp1's (including ones with a similar lower to the A1, fence around the mag release and no reinforcement around the buffer tube) is that they have a large pin up front which is odd looking (you can use a modern small pin upper with a conversion kit, still looks bad) and some of them have a "shelf" pinned into them so you can only use an ar15 bolt carrier not an m16 carrier. 

My Sp1 carbine has not shelf but has an ar15 lower. 

 My a4 clone has one of the psa m16a4 lowers on it.

14 hours ago, Ryan Reese said:

You’re right. The lower was never really part of the equation and I won’t loose any sleep at night. I always keep a couple PSA stealth lowers sitting around just in case I need to build something real quick. 😁

 

On another note, I’ve always thought the PSA “US GOVT PROPERTY” marked lowers we’re cool. I’ve used a couple of the M4 ones and they’re a cool conversation piece. I’ve seen them for “M4”, “M4A1” and now they have the “M16A4” version out. But I’ve never seen “M16A1” or “M16A2”. Could the A1 and A2 name be owned by Colt? I know multiple manufacturers make the M4’s and M16A4’s so they could be different. 

Yeah, colt actually made a semi auto m16a1 lower it has correct markings and everything however, the price for a complete lower is stupid crazy. Your going to be forking out almost $2,000

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://charliescustomclones.com/colt-m16a1-lower-receiver-retro-re-issue-semi-auto-with-a1-stock-complete/&ved=2ahUKEwjG88jSvYn2AhV6LDQIHeoBDBYQFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1Sj80VIsdW4V5noRpmr9kI

 

 

13 hours ago, TurdFerguson said:

  

 

Cloners. Not as many people cloning early rifles. Its easier to just buy an SP1 that's close than to build one. The issue with the early sp1's (including ones with a similar lower to the A1, fence around the mag release and no reinforcement around the buffer tube) is that they have a large pin up front which is odd looking (you can use a modern small pin upper with a conversion kit, still looks bad) and some of them have a "shelf" pinned into them so you can only use an ar15 bolt carrier not an m16 carrier. 

My Sp1 carbine has not shelf but has an ar15 lower. 

 My a4 clone has one of the psa m16a4 lowers on it.

Great looking A4 build... There just seems to be some junk stuck to the side of the buttstock. haha joking.

 

I've been keeping an eye out for a deal on a Matech rear sight for my M4 clone. Which ACOG and rail did you go with? The Knights rails were out of my price range.