Awhile back I picked up a infantry regimental color made in the 1920's and used I think until the regiment was disbanded some 20+ years later in Korea. The flag was purchased at an auction. It was actually all wadded up and tossed in a box with a oil filter wrench underneath a table. The silk flag is very large with a blue background and a gold fringed border. Should I have any concerns about selling such an item?

John

I don't know if the age of the flag matters or not, but recently a Civil War era regimental flag was found on display at a bank. Too many details to get into but a militaria collector contacted the FBI. The flag was missing from our State Museum and was returned.

 

According to the FBI all regimental flags are property of the US government. With CW flags, the government gave them to the states. So I would assume (dangerous word) that yes, your regimental flag is still Federal property. If it is a National Guard flag then it probably still belongs to the state.

 

My two cents worth.

I can't speak regarding specific federal laws, however Army Regulations require retired colors, guidons and other issued unit forms of heraldry, are to be returned to the QMC. At least that is my recollection of the idea of the regulation. In any case it is clear that the Army does not intend for this items to be sold or released through survey. To me this implies that any of these items misappropriated would be considered stolden contraband.

 

The regimental colors of the Army as a whole, Regular, Reserve and National Guard are governed by Army Regulations. I don't know that there is any prohibition from states providing such flags but the design is still Federal property. When I was in the CAARNG I handled several regimental flags and they were all issued by the QMC.

I don't know about regimental colors, but evidently guidons can be sold. At least there are a lot of them floating around out there in collectorland. I've got a couple of them and I know a guy who has dozens of guidons. (Sorry, I don't have the capability right now to post pix of mine.)

I have also seen several ads over the years in the ASMIC Newsletter, where collectors are wanting to buy guidons.

I don't know about regimental colors, but evidently guidons can be sold. At least there are a lot of them floating around out there in collectorland. I've got a couple of them and I know a guy who has dozens of guidons. (Sorry, I don't have the capability right now to post pix of mine.)

I have also seen several ads over the years in the ASMIC Newsletter, where collectors are wanting to buy guidons.

 

 

Army regulations require guidons to be returned to the QMC. The fact that there are allot of them out there is more because of ignorance of the AR and unit commanders like to keep the guidons of their commands.

 

I know both of these things because when I was a unit commander the unit came under a new branch. As a consequence the unit got a new guidon. I wanted to keep the old guidon and looked up the Army Regulation regarding disposition.

 

All those people dealing and collecting guidons are dealing in stolen property.

All those people dealing and collecting guidons are dealing in stolen property.

 

So are most people dealing with and collecting M-1 helmets, ka-bar knives, some types of field gear and gosh knows how many thousands of other things that vets and active duty GI's took home with them. Granted many things were later declared surplus and sold to the private market, but many of the things we covet most were simply taken home without permission: I would imagine that if you have a helmet with grandpa's name in it, chances are the Army did not give that helmet to grandpa

At the end of WWI the Army allowed discharged veterans one uniform complete, overcoat, helmet and respirator. These items were fairly commonly found in estates of WWI vets.

 

It is true that much of the materials in the military equipment market were misappropriated. But there came a point where the property was surveyed or written off the property books and was therefore no longer government property. In other words the government gave up interest in recovering the item(s) and no longer held the property book officer pecuniarily liable.

 

This is probably true of guidons as well, but as I stated the Army Regulations are quite clear that regimental colors and guidons are required to be returned to the QMC. Even if written off the property books the equipment is still property of the government unless condemned, sold as excess or scrapped through surplus sales. A huge amount of equipment was "loaned" to quite a few countries after WWII and that equipment was dropped from any property accountability.

 

Except for "sensitive" items like small arms, classified items and those items that Army Regulations give specific guidance on disposition, I doubt the government would take any action to recover or prosecute as cost ineffective.

 

A couple of years ago there was an investigation into the large number of cases of MREs sold commercially. Apparently MREs had never been released as excess so the large numbers of cases were possibly misappropriated.

 

It frankly irritates me when a collector refers to a person issued equipment as the "owner." It gets into the issue among collectors as to ownership vs. conservator. There are those that argue anything in their possession is their property to do with as they see fit. I think it is these same collectors that prefer to think that the item was owned by the soldier, etc. rather than the government, which are in fact us all.

 

But if the equipment has or had a "U.S." on it and it was accounted for on a property book, no one can own misappropriated non-expendable equipment, no matter how much wishful thinking is applied.

Great! Just found this site yesterday and have now found out that I bought an guidon that is illegal to own. Nice to know such things after the fact. I bought the guidon from an ex-advisor to the El Salvaodran Armed Forces. It was the guidon for the 7th USSF stationed in Panama. It certainly went nice with my Central American collection, but now I found out that I can't display it with my items.

Arch

Maybe the government will ask Dick Winters to give back his WWII issue 506th Para Infantry Guidon you always see proudly displayed behind him in every documentary or interview he has been in.

 

Kurt

Great! Just found this site yesterday and have now found out that I bought an guidon that is illegal to own. Nice to know such things after the fact. I bought the guidon from an ex-advisor to the El Salvaodran Armed Forces. It was the guidon for the 7th USSF stationed in Panama. It certainly went nice with my Central American collection, but now I found out that I can't display it with my items.

Arch

 

 

Does it have a government tag on it? How do you know it's not just a nice copy? I just checked Google and it looks like 7th SF Group has another guidon so if this was theirs, they apparently no longer need it

Does it have a government tag on it? How do you know it's not just a nice copy? I just checked Google and it looks like 7th SF Group has another guidon so if this was theirs, they apparently no longer need it

Yes, it is stamped on the inside where you would fit it over a pole. I think it is dated 1975. I'm sure with a little soap and elbow grease, that stubborn stamp could easily disappear!

As to guidons, it was common for outgoing commanders and senior NCOs (usually the SGMs & 1SGs) to get a guidon when leaving. I would venture to say at least one of those gifted guidons probably came from the supply room. Usually these were made off post though you couldn't tell it from the "issue" one. As a matter of fact, at least once I know our supply SGT went off post to get a replacement due to the tradition of "collecting "colors by competing units.

 

So, could be that some of these were gifts to outgoing personnel. As to the legallity of selling them, hmmm, maybe not much more than selling off a fully dressed out uniform that IAW regulations should have been "demilitarized" by removal of distinctive insignia. Seems a lot of this stuff is overlooked in the collecting market and rarely enforced except in high profile cases.

 

I wouldn't worry about a guidon. On the other hand, full regimental colors is another story.

Maybe the government will ask Dick Winters to give back his WWII issue 506th Para Infantry Guidon you always see proudly displayed behind him in every documentary or interview he has been in.

 

Kurt

 

Good point Kurt but the guidon that hangs in his office was the original and sewn by one of the men in the Company prior to the official guidon being issued to the rifle companies in the regiment. So I would think that this one was never technically property of Uncle Sam. The guidon that you referenced was "in service" for a few months and was replaced by the traditional "dark blue field and crossed rifles" that first debuted for the Toccoa to Atlanta march.

 

 

Hope this helps.

I know I'm USMC and that our regs vary, but after my first tour in Iraq when our company was reforming and reorganizing, we presented our CO from the mission with the company's guidon encased

I agree with Brig, common practice in the USMC in the 80's as well. Heck, a SNCO friend of mine found an old guidon balled up in a desk drawer. He asked the CO about it, CO said the unit got a new one, and he could have it.

 

Legal? Dunno. But sure common practice in the Marines. I've seen guidons all over the place that I know darn good and well aren't copies, etc.

 

One of those little regs that is commonly ignored for the good of the order, perhaps.

I have a question pertaining WWII issue guidons.

Would an artillery battery guidon have the crossed canons, battalion number and battery letter all in the same yellow color?

I have found examples which have the canons and battery letter in white and the Battalion number in yellow (all on red backing).

 

Can anyone resolve this mystery?

 

example: 90th Field Arty Battn, A Battery, 25th Infantry Div

 

 

Best regards

Carl