Is there a reference that outlines criteria for award ot soldiers of other branches such as the Engineers, who participated in active ground combat WITH an infantry unit during ww2, but not actually ASSIGNED to that unit. I have two ww2 uniforms of Airborne Engineers which display the CIB. I have the Record Of Separation for one of them and it does not list the CIB on his discharge document.

 

As far as I can tell, engineers were not authorized to wear the CIB unless they were ASSIGNED to an infantry unit and participated in active ground combat. Most of the engineers of the 139th AEB fought on the front side by side with members of the infantry regiments in the 17th AB.

 

I am wondering if they are erroneously wearing the CIB on their uniforms! I am not saying they are doing so dishonorably, I just can;t find any documentation to back up the wear. The almost all participated in active combat on patrols and "fought as infantry when required" as is one of the engineer missions.

 

Any help appreciated.

 

oz

If you go strictly according to the regulations, no one other than actual infantrymen should be awarded/wearing a CIB.

 

In reality, other soldiers such as engineers, artillerymen, etc. were awarded CIBs. Some even had written orders awarding them the badge.

 

This topic generally creates a lot of comments, and has previously been discussed on this forum. You might try doing a search and see what pops up. I seem to recall a long-running thread about Gen McArthur's CIB, and a couple other threads that touched on this topic.

Have been searching for a while...will posts results. Thanks for commenting. Well keep working on this

I have a group to an Anti Aircraft Artilleryman from Attu that includes a period 2-piece CIB.

on his documents it does not list that he received the CIB.. though I am sure he did.

He was WIA in the final Bonzai charge on Attu.

 

I'm assuming he didn't just "add" the CIB to his stuff, though I can't find where he was officially awarded it.

Geoff from Golden Arrow research said that this is not uncommon. (no real record of CIB awarding)

 

I mean.. the awarding could have been through the 7th infantry and not even through his AA outfit.

(as I believe his group was attached to the 7th on Attu)

 

-Brian

After researching my Grandfather this is what I have come to the conclusion of. I believe it depended on what Duty MOS line number they were being carried as when participating in combat regardless of their original "trained" MOS. My Grandfather was trained as a Combat Engineer. He arrived overseas in NOV 44 and he was assigned to the 80th Div and then sent as a replacement to A Co 317th INF Regiment. So I assume the Engineers had all the guys they needed and excess was assigned to fill out the Infantry regiments as Riflemen. During The Battle of the Bulge on 15 JAN 45 he was Severly Wounded in Action (SWA) near KEHMEN, LX.

 

On the 16 JAN 45 in the company morning report he is listed by name, service number and beside his name was (745) just like this in parentheses. 745 was the line # for Rifleman, Infantry so with that he was awarded his CIB.

I was always perplexed that in his Purple Heart box along with his Good Conduct Medal were a set of Engineer BOS. It was not until about three months ago when I found the 80th DIV company BoB morning reports and scoured through them finding the above info that I put together that his listing on the report as a Infantry Rifleman (745) is why he was awarded the CIB as an "Engineer".

 

Heck when I started I did not even know what Division he was in as did none of the family. He never talked about it. When I finally got his Service #, I was able to find the G.O. (that also listed him as INF) that awarded his Purple Heart and found out he was in the 80th Div. Then I went to the 80th DIV website and start going thru morning reports of each Engineer unit and found nothing. Then I started with the Infantry unit reports. Fortunately he was in A Co 317th so I did not have to dig to deep. Sorry I degress.

Brian...riflegreen, those are great details. I did some more digging and ran into William Emerson's great insignia site. He stated that War Department Circular 408, October 1944 changed the criteria for award of the badge to “satisfactory performance against the enemy as part of an infantry unit...” part of is different from assigned to. Army terms, particularly in manuals and regulations are very specific. It was previously only awarded to infantrymen, after Oct 44 it seemed to open the gates to anyone who engaged in action as part of an infantry unit.

 

Since B and C Company were ordered to the line on 4 Jan 45 as part of the 194th GIR, they were probably then part of an infantry unit as they were assigned a specific sector of the front under the command of the GIR Commander.

 

http://www.emersoninsignia.net/files/Download/CombatInf.pdf

Right.. and then I think a lot of these CIB's were technically retracted or turned into bronze stars..

am I correct on that?

 

But the scenario you describe sure seems plausible.. and Geoff didn't seem to think it too odd that the guy got the CIB but there was no real record of it.

So that made me think it's fairly common with WW2 groups.

 

Like I said, I can't imagine this guy adding a CIB that he really didn't earn to his group of WW2 stuff.

I think a lot of things during the war "just happened" and may not have been documented as well as we collectors/researchers would like. (IMO)

-Brian

I'm not sure if they were retracted, but those earning the CIB could receive a Bronze Star. Not sure if it was in place of or addition to. I have not seen the WD circular addressing that change.

In 1947 the Army awarded the BSM for meritorious service retroactively to all WWII-era soldiers that earned a CIB or CMB. The veteran simply had to provide documentation of the CIB/CMB and fill out an application. These are often referred to as "CIB conversion" BSMs, which isn't really the case. The BSM awards were in addition to their wartime entitlements, including the CIB and CMB.

 

I have a Silver Star grouping to an armored infantry medic. There was both a CIB and CMB among his awards, although the CIB does not appear in his record. When the CIB was created, it caused enormous consternation in infantry units because combat medics were excluded from the entitlement. I believe many infantry unit commanders said the hell with that, and awarded them anyway. The outcry eventually resulted in the CMB for combat medics

I wonder about something and maybe someone can answer.

 

In Late WW2 Patton ordered many of his AA troops to become riflemen dues to shortages of replacements. Would they have been credited as Infantrymen MOS and awarded CIB's or more likely used as Grunts and then sent back to old status at wars end?

Have had this one for years.Would be intresting to research

 

If you go strictly according to the regulations, no one other than actual infantrymen should be awarded/wearing a CIB.

 

In reality, other soldiers such as engineers, artillerymen, etc. were awarded CIBs. Some even had written orders awarding them the badge.

 

This topic generally creates a lot of comments, and has previously been discussed on this forum. You might try doing a search and see what pops up. I seem to recall a long-running thread about Gen McArthur's CIB, and a couple other threads that touched on this topic.

While the Combat Infantryman Badge was always intended from its inception to recognize only soldiers trained as infantry who actually fought in combat with infantry units, the wording of the qualifications in some of the World War II War Department Circulars which dealt with the badge were vague enough that through various interpretations some soldiers who were not actually infantry trained and assigned to infantry units were nevertheless awarded the CIB through legitimate orders issued by their commanders. Some of the examples I have seen were ground personnel from aviation units who fought with infantry units in the Philippines at the outbreak of WWII after their aircraft were either destroyed or withdrawn to Australia. Others I have seen were engineers who engaged in infantry-like combat at Anzio. I'm sure there were others but those are examples I know about.

After researching my Grandfather this is what I have come to the conclusion of. I believe it depended on what Duty MOS line number they were being carried as when participating in combat regardless of their original "trained" MOS. My Grandfather was trained as a Combat Engineer. He arrived overseas in NOV 44 and he was assigned to the 80th Div and then sent as a replacement to A Co 317th INF Regiment. So I assume the Engineers had all the guys they needed and excess was assigned to fill out the Infantry regiments as Riflemen. During The Battle of the Bulge on 15 JAN 45 he was Severly Wounded in Action (SWA) near KEHMEN, LX.

 

On the 16 JAN 45 in the company morning report he is listed by name, service number and beside his name was (745) just like this in parentheses. 745 was the line # for Rifleman, Infantry so with that he was awarded his CIB.

I was always perplexed that in his Purple Heart box along with his Good Conduct Medal were a set of Engineer BOS. It was not until about three months ago when I found the 80th DIV company BoB morning reports and scoured through them finding the above info that I put together that his listing on the report as a Infantry Rifleman (745) is why he was awarded the CIB as an "Engineer".

 

Heck when I started I did not even know what Division he was in as did none of the family. He never talked about it. When I finally got his Service #, I was able to find the G.O. (that also listed him as INF) that awarded his Purple Heart and found out he was in the 80th Div. Then I went to the 80th DIV website and start going thru morning reports of each Engineer unit and found nothing. Then I started with the Infantry unit reports. Fortunately he was in A Co 317th so I did not have to dig to deep. Sorry I degress.

It wasn't so much that the engineers had all the troops they needed in Europe by the Fall of 1944 as it was the case that the Army was desperately short of infantryman. The problem stemmed from a number of reasons as varied as the decision early in the war to limit the total number of combat divisions to activated to 90 to the fact that the war in Europe was grinding to a stalemate and the replacement system couldn't keep up with the losses of infantrymen which were much higher than originally anticipated.

 

Around the time of the Battle of the Bulge, all sorts of units were stripped of personnel who were then given some very quick and I'm sure limited infantry training then rushed to the front as infantry replacements. I have heard of entire anti-aircraft artillery units being disbanded for this purpose since the Allies pretty much had complete air superiority in Europe by this time and those units were not needed as originally anticipated. Others included cooks and clerks and I'm sure engineers such as your grandfather. One interesting experiment even had black service and support troops, who were still serving in segregated units, retrained as infantrymen and sent to rifle companies to form fourth platoons which still remained segregated. However some historians have argued that their excellent performance in combat went a long way towards the full desegregation of the Army a few years later.

 

As I understand it, these troops were actually given new infantry MOS's and would have been fully eligible to earn the CIB.

 

Brian...riflegreen, those are great details. I did some more digging and ran into William Emerson's great insignia site. He stated that War Department Circular 408, October 1944 changed the criteria for award of the badge to “satisfactory performance against the enemy as part of an infantry unit...” part of is different from assigned to. Army terms, particularly in manuals and regulations are very specific. It was previously only awarded to infantrymen, after Oct 44 it seemed to open the gates to anyone who engaged in action as part of an infantry unit.

 

Since B and C Company were ordered to the line on 4 Jan 45 as part of the 194th GIR, they were probably then part of an infantry unit as they were assigned a specific sector of the front under the command of the GIR Commander.

 

http://www.emersoninsignia.net/files/Download/CombatInf.pdf

Again, there were a series of War Department Circulars issued during WWII which first instituted the Combat Infantryman Badge in 1943 and then tweeked its award criteria over the next couple of years. I'm convinced that many of the awards to non-infantrymen which were made during the war under competent orders were based on sincere misunderstandings of the regulations and intent of the award and were not meant to circumvent the regulations.

I have a Silver Star grouping to an armored infantry medic. There was both a CIB and CMB among his awards, although the CIB does not appear in his record. When the CIB was created, it caused enormous consternation in infantry units because combat medics were excluded from the entitlement. I believe many infantry unit commanders said the hell with that, and awarded them anyway. The outcry eventually resulted in the CMB for combat medics

The CIB was first created in 1943 and the CMB didn't come along until early 1945. Bill Mauldin discusses this issue in his book "Up Front". Apparently some medics were initially awarded the CIB under their commander's reading of the CIB regs and there were probably actual orders which reflect this. However, at some point, the Army ordered the medics to remove their CIB's on the theory that under the Geneva Convention they were considered noncombatants and wearing a badge intended for combat infantrymen might be construed as a violation of the Convention by the Germans and cause them to not honor their noncombatant status. Apparently most medics took the loss in stride but it was actually the front line infantrymen who shouted so loudly that the Army eventually created a separate Combat Medical Badge for them.