Hi all,

Here is an unusual patch I just acquired.I'm going to have to do some more research,but this is what I have learned so far.I believe it is for the USAF guys that flew the AT-28's in Laos,attacking the trucks along the HCM trail,and also helped train Laotian Pilots.

 

This is a Thai piece.

Could be a Maintenance unit for the AT-28 seeing as it say "Flightline 231" , possibly CAMS , Filed Maint type ................

Thanks for the comment Johnny!I believe that this patch may have been worn by the pilots.I found a photo of a pilot wearing what looks like this patch.Since this unit operated in the "grey area" during the war,the designation "Flightline 231"may be a way of designating the place that they operated from rather than naming a base. I will post it later in the appropriate category with some additional info I have found .

Could it be a Thai patch for the Thai Air Force?

 

I have always hesitated to buy this one although the making and the design are desirable. Some Thai patches are written in Enghish instead of national language.

Thanks for the comment.I have been trying to do more research when I get a spare minute here and there,and what little that I have found leads me to believe that this piece was used by US Pilots that flew combat missions in Laos and I believe also trained Laotian pilots.
I want to do a full post in the USAF patches category with some scans of my patch and also presenting the info I have found,including a photo of a US pilot wearing what looks like the patch.

Stay tuned!

I will !

 

I do want to add that after your initial post,I did some "Googling",and did find some references to T-28 aircraft from the Thai AF.I did'nt do any in depth research,but I came away with the impression that these T-28's were turned over to the Thai AF after the war,for the Thai's to use.

Also,if it was a Thai AF piece I would think that this would be relatively easy to research,as most Thai military patches are fairly common,and would probably have appeared in references.

From your location,I'm assuming that you are from Thailand;do you have any place or anyone to research the Thai AF patches?I would be interested to see what you come up with.

Unfortunately I have never been able to find a reference locally, not for the patches or even for the metal badges.

 

As for the number of patches produced, I guess it would be as difficult as with any U.S. squadrons (or smaller level) when variation/novelty can be somewhat difficult to identify. But a nice challenge! If the patch is used by U.S. pilots, that would lead us to personnel assigned to the Waterpump Det. at Udorn, right?

 

I do share the feeling that most T-28 were transfered to the RTAF after the war. Yet, it seems that some were handled by 1966 and more by 1974 (the latter originally sent for the Khmer Air Force).

I would think that if this patch represents a Thai unit that someone would have documented it by now.Now if the patch is connected to the US arming and training the Laotians then I could better understand its' obscurity and the confusion in ID'ing it,as the US involvement in Laos during the VN war was largely kept from the publics' knowledge,and any insignia related to this "secret" unit would be made in very small numbers,and be tough to pin down as our Government was not "advertising" their presence in Laos.

Another reason I'm inclined to believe that this patch is US/Laos related is that during my research almost everything I found related to the AT-28D aircraft pertained to the US training and equipping the Laotians during the Vietnam war.I believe that the AT-28D was the "Attack" variant of the T-28 line.I also found no reference to the Thai AF flying combat missions during the VN war.If you have any info that documents Thai AF combat missions during the war,please post it.

We know very little about the Thai patches (there are some listed right now on ebay and more were listed last week, few are referenced).

 

The U.S. unit dealing with the laotian, thai mercenaries and Khmer pilots on the T-28 was Det. 1, 56th ACW/SOW in the second part of the war. Despite the secrecy, lots of patches are referenced here and there.

 

It seems that a Thai T-28 squadron was known as the 231st Squadron. Hense my hesitation (and curiosity about your personal research).

We know very little about the Thai patches (there are some listed right now on ebay and more were listed last week, few are referenced).

 

The U.S. unit dealing with the laotian, thai mercenaries and Khmer pilots on the T-28 was Det. 1, 56th ACW/SOW in the second part of the war. Despite the secrecy, lots of patches are referenced here and there.

 

It seems that a Thai T-28 squadron was known as the 231st Squadron. Hense my hesitation (and curiosity about your personal research).

 

The Thai AF was/is much bigger and more professionally organized than the Laotian AF,so it seems odd to me that the Thai AF would have very little reference data for their own unit insignia,and yet when it comes to the Laotian AF units,you state "lots of patches are referenced here and there."

 

Actually I have seen the patch I posted here about a half dozen times in my 15 or so years of collecting,and each time I saw it it was referred to as a US/Laos piece.

 

I did see the reference to the Thai 231st Tactical Fighter Squadron,but discounted it because I could'nt find any reference to the unit using AT-28's.I found reference to the 231st using F-5 jets .

If you have any documentation showing that the Thai 231st Tactical Fighter Squadron used AT-28's planes,please post it.I would be interested to see it.

 

I did find reference to Thai pilots flying T-28's,some on combat missions,during the VN war,but the unit(s) were not mentioned.

Ok, not simple. But always interesting!

 

Odd to you or not, there is no reference known to the public. (as part of my job, some collegues work directly with the Thai Armed Forces and it had been asked last year, for me). This is the difference between a country at war (especially with such a war) and an Air Force in a "peace time." No one collect Thai units per se. The advisory role can not be compared with Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.

For instance, is there a complete reference of the pre-1979 Iranian AF patches? And you don't find a reference of the Thai metal specialties either (even in Thai language in Thailand).

 

About identifications that hide in the books for years, some fellow forum members know that I don't take them for granted and I do like to find out other options (Junk Badge proper colors, pseudo Cao Dai badge, Murta's early ARVN airborne wings...). That said, everybody can make mistake, me included!

 

On an interesting note, the Thai had up to 4 T-28 squadrons during the war. (Tactical Fighter is not necessarily what should be looked for BTW, as the Thai often simply use "squadron").

 

I used the link below as part of my Military Assistance Program and Waterpump researches :

http://www.thai-aviation.net/files/T_28_SE_Asia.pdf although not showing the Thai patches, it nevertheless reveals that in 1971 those 4 squadrons were as follow:

 

- 221st Sq at Chiang Mai

- 222nd Sq at Ubon Ratchathani

- 223rd Sq at Udorn

- 224th Sq at Koke Kratiem (Lopburi).

 

AT-28s arrived late in the conflict. They have probably been gained after the fall of the Khmer Republic when the T-28 escaped to Thailand. And the T-28s were still in the Thai inventory by at least 1986. And unit designations, locations can change.

 

http://www.wings-aviation.ch/08-RTAF%20Planes/NorthAmerican-T-28/Attack.htm mentions the 231st Sq.

 

Here is what is available about aircraft 0-13548:

MAP 19 Aug 65; (...) to 231 Squadron, Udon Thani 16 Jan ??; soc 27 Sep 83 (according to document Tor.Or.6456/28); displayed at Lopburi; code '22404'; to ‘Tango’ 1991

 

Looking at the historical record of this particular aircraft, we have to look for the activation of the 231^st Squadron at Udorn. Unfortunately the two question marks here don't help. And one aircraft record does not make an air force history, yet, it confirms two things: the 231st squadron exist and it was equipped with T-28s.

 

http://www.thai-aviation.net/files/Air_Force_Detail.pdf

 

More interesting is obviously what the Thai people have to say about their own Air Force then:

 

ภาย หลังปี ๒๕๒๔ ฝูงบิน ที-๒๘ดี ทั้งหมด เหลือเพียงฝูงบินขับไล่ยุทธวิธีที่ ๒๓๑ กองบิน ๒๓ อุดรฯ (เป็นอาร์มรูปขาวสีฟ้าบนโล่ธงชาติไทย) ทั้งหมด จึงมีการเปลี่ยนสีเดิมเป็นสีพรางเขียว ท้องขาว สีฮิตของกองทัพอากาศไทย ใช้งานอยู่จนกระทั่งปลดประจำการ เนื่องจากหมดอายุการใช้งานในปี ๒๕๒๗ รวมอายุการประจำการ ๑๓ ปี (ไม่นับช่วงที่อยู่ในกองทัพสหรัฐฯ)

 

Which is translated by Google as:

 

After 2524 a squadron of only T-28 to 231 Tactical Fighter Squadron Wing 23 Udon (an arm of the blue and white flag on the shield Thailand) all have the same color as camouflage green color with white belly of the hits. Thailand Forecast Active until discharge. Since the end of its life in 2527 as the basis for 13 years (not counting the Army in the United States).

 

The year 2524 is 1981 for us.

 

Again, this is leading to a Thai squadron IDed as the 231st, flying T-28s.

 

To me the patch is likely to have been worn after the war, in the early 80's. Especially since the 231st Squadron existed at that time, equipped with T-28. I don't know when they transitionned to the F-5. But I know that the 231st Sq. flew the F-5 for the last time only 7 years ago!

 

Tell you what: I would really prefer to be wrong and that the patch would be laotian/waterpump related. This one is not too difficult to find, it is rather cheap (the usual Waterpump patches are ranging between 200 to 800 usd!), and looks great. So that would make my day. Yet, different clues lead to other conclusions.

 

But you may have other information I did not find? Do not hesitate to share them!

I commend you for your impressive research!Lot's of good info there.I opened the PDF that you linked to and did a "find" (Command-F on my Mac) for

"AT-28D".88 items showed up as I went through them I noticed that almost all of the AT-28D's were initially Laotian or Cambodian but many did state "escaped to Thailand" after the war.Not all went to Thailand though as some are listed only as "RLaoAF or KhmerAF" so I believe that most did fly in combat for these nations during the war.I noted that some also ended up in the Philippine AF as well.

 

Online I found a few references to the Thai "231st" and they were Jet aircraft,the Alpha and the F-5.

 

Here is a reference I found:

The 231 Squadron "Hunter" is assigned to Udorn, equipped with the Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet-A.

 

Here is a link to an F-5 reference for the 231st:

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f5_39.html

 

It seems odd to me that a unit that has a history flying jets would have been flying old prop planes too,especially as late as the 80's.While not unheard of,it would be very unusual,IMO.Also the 231st,being a Tactical Fighter Squadron would imply jets,at least to me anyway.The AT-28D would seem to be an "Attack" aircraft,

used for close air support and counter insurgency missions.

 

 

The 231st has a Facebook page,I'm wondering if they could be contacted and asked if anyone can verify if this patch was used by them.If it was used,as you state, by the unit as late as the 80's,then I would think that someone would remember it.

Here is the link to their FB page:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/231-Tactical-Fighting-Squadron-Wing-23-Royal-Thai-Air-Force/114615125290979

 

I found some interesting photos online at the RTAF Museum.The F-5 photo mentions the 231st using it,but the T-28 photo does not mention the 231st.I took some screenshots of the photos and the text associated with them and will post them too.

 

Here is a link to the site where I found the photos:

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=264&Itemid=47

 

To sum things up,there appears to be alot of "intermixing" of the AT-28D between the various AF's during,and after the war.Adding the factor of the Laotian and Cambodian "secret" programs further clouds the issue.(I'm glad that I did find references to Thai AF members flying combat missions in the T-28 platform during the VN war.)

You've put forth some good theories and it's too bad that there is no corresponding proof,such as a photo of a Thai AF member wearing the patch.If I may,I would suggest that you attempt to further investigate,perhaps contacting the unit and asking them about the insignia.

As I stated before,I will be posting my patch with some info I found proposing my theory on it's use.I will do this as soon as I assemble the text,links and photos and post it here on this forum.

It has something to do with the 1131st Special Activity SQ or GP which was a cover for a Det of the 56th SOW.

_____

https://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep19555.20?seq=1