Here's one for your Sword guys. Found this piece this weekend. Can anyone guess what it is? Its American, scabbard though dating to period is incorrect for this type of sword

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1840 "wrist breaker"

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Maybe of the style of but not specifically an M1840. Thanks for the guess!

Doesn't look US to me

It certainly is not from the United States

Model 1860 but the pommel is a bit different.

Close....

It certainly is not from the United States

Why do you (seem to) think it's Confederate? I don't know enough to argue the point, so don't mean to be confrontational. Looks to me like a Model 1860 with a bent guard, but I couldn't speculate on source of production. If it is indeed Confederate, it's the deal of the year at $350!!! Steve

Mexican

 

It is not one of the "Dog River" swords I am familiar with and the scabbard type was used into the 20th century (I would not judge a sword by a scabbard first).

 

An unstopped fuller would probably rule out Solingen but not France/Alsace but then the rest of the build not particularly like European fittings of the 19th century. If we (somewhat arbitrarily) rule out Union, Europe and CSA, then what is left? Latin America and modern Chinese reproductions.

 

The ACW is not really my scope of interest and I really don't have any books for them aside from the Medicus collection and Bezdek American Makers and Swords. Someone with current data on rebel swords might rule in favor or dimiss it as such. The scabbard looks like better work than the hilt. A recycled French 1822 blade and scabbard? I cannot really say ii is but Mexico and the rest of Latin America certainly had European affiliations during the 19th century. It is in no way a French mle 1822 hilt.

 

A curious enough sword that I will file it in a CSA folder but my first guess kind satnds for right now.

 

Cheers

 

GC

 

whadueyenoanniwhey?

Turkey and Afghanistan as just a couple more alternatives.

Darn, was hoping there were a few more Civil War Collectors on the forum.

Its a textbook Kennansville North Corolina Made Cavalry saber by Louis Froelich in a federal model 1860 Cavalry Saber scabbard. Flawed castings, hand filing, poorly shaped pommel, unstopped fuller, brown pig skin wrapped handle with a single strand iron wire in them selves are indicators of Southern fabrication. I have bought and sold a few Confederate pieces over the years a Thomas Griswold of New Orleans Officers Cavalry saber in the original brass scabbard, a maker marked Georgia Pike, a potts Bowie with scabbard, a Boyle Gamble Mcafee of Richmound Virginia among others.

 

 

http://www.oldsouthantiques.com/os1877p1.htm

http://www.relicman.com/weapons/W1311sell.htm

http://www.otterburnantiques.com/KenansvilleSaber.htm

http://historical.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=642&lotIdNo=55015

http://www.shilohrelics.com/cgi-bin/display_item.asp?98374

Thanks for the info

 

The only Louis Froelich swords I am familiar with always seemed a good bit above the level of finish and castings of this one but as I wrote, a territory I am quite unfamiliar with. Those I had seen are generally officer or the batch attributed to Wde Hampton. Those, in particular were thought to be with blades from other countries. My books are a still a state away but now unpacked, so I will have to look at the Medicus pages again. There are several pages of CSA swords pictured.

 

Cheers

 

GC

Ok...I'm curious. How much is a gem like this worth!? I am unfortunately not in the civil war collecting field.

Terry: I was so busy copying your ref Mat on my Marine I did not see your post or I would have told you yes it is a Confederate made (not import) saber. Not sure about scabbard. Are you sure on the maker or do you want me to dig thru my 40 + year old references? ( I collected CW in the 60's) , 1960's not 1860's I know I'm as old as dirt but not that old Ha Ha Really really nice. Richard

Richard. I attribute it to Froelich and I am pretty sure about it, though I never dismiss a 2nd or 3rd opinion. These type seem to have suttle differences as they were all hand finished.

 

As far as value Carbinephalen...if it had the correct scabbard I would probably ask $5000 for it at the next collectors show. With the federal scabbard probably $3000 and then dicker down to about $2500. In confederate swords a correct scabbard makes a huge difference mostly because that to find another correct scabbard on the loose is quite difficult if not impossible. Confederate made weaponry is substancially rarer than the massive amounts of weaponry that the Union turned out or imported during the Civil War. That, compiled with the hard service that the Confederate made pieces saw, make them quite uncommon today. A few years ago I could have expected close to $6000 for just the saber with no scabbard however there has been a substancial correction to Confederate weopons in last couple of years. I am guessing because of the economy and the waning interest in the Civil War. Some items are becoming affordable again.

Just curios do the trip X's on the guard indicate something??They look rather well done.

Thanks

 

RD

Doyler, these are actually assembly markings for matching the scabbard to the sword. Froelich tended to use a roman numeral style assembly marking because they were easier to apply by hand filing versus numbered die stampings. I have seen this on a few other Confederate atributed swords however Froelich used them quite extensively. The correct scabbard for this saber would have XXX filed into the scabbard throat. The scabbard would have been iron with brass fittings.

Darn, was hoping there were a few more Civil War Collectors on the forum.

Its a textbook Kennansville North Corolina Made Cavalry saber by Louis Froelich in a federal model 1860 Cavalry Saber scabbard. Flawed castings, hand filing, poorly shaped pommel, unstopped fuller, brown pig skin wrapped handle with a single strand iron wire in them selves are indicators of Southern fabrication. I have bought and sold a few Confederate pieces over the years a Thomas Griswold of New Orleans Officers Cavalry saber in the original brass scabbard, a maker marked Georgia Pike, a potts Bowie with scabbard, a Boyle Gamble Mcafee of Richmound Virginia among others.

 

 

http://www.oldsoutha...om/os1877p1.htm

http://www.relicman....s/W1311sell.htm

http://www.otterburn...svilleSaber.htm

http://historical.ha...2&lotIdNo=55015

http://www.shilohrel..._item.asp?98374

 

 

I did not look at any of the links you attached so I maybe repeating something, But when I collected this type of saber, with smooth top pommel and shaped blade and untwisted wire wrap was attributed to The Confederate States Armory at Kenansville, NC. I can not remember if L. Froelich was Supt. there or not. I once found a pommel like this in a fire ditch at Whitehouse, FL. , which was between Jacksonville and Old Lustee (largest battle in FL fought there and Whitehouse was occupied by Union and Confederate Forces, both sides had a hospital there) A very nice example, I wonder how a Confd. Sword made it ti Col.? Lucky for you it did. Also Ron -- Many sword makers in US from 1799 thru CW used Cottage labor and the like for making parts and sometimes used Roman Numerials some say to keep parts together others say to account for how many the craftsman made so he could get paid, I'm not sure but they seem to be associated with American Weapons, especially with swords and Perc. Revolvers. . Richard

I guess I do have my blinders on, as I browse some of those sites regulalry but generally not the CSA stuff. Shiloh mentions replace wire, another shows twisted over leather? Another not listed (I think it is Dave Taylor's pages) reads as copper over oil cloth for the first model swords. My short ternm memory is a sieve but I do remember Froelich partnering to run the North Carolina factory. IIRC, after another had been burned down. I have only scattered bookmarks and what I see in a few books regarding the CSA arms but do see some listed at prices that tend to keep me from that market.

 

The more I see on forums, the more I come to learn.

 

Cheers

 

GC

I was originally ruling out confederate because the castings looked too clean in the photos. I guess I was wrong. I see the little flaw on the left side of the pommel but I don't see the "normal" rough sand casting marks. Is it possible to get a better close-up of the guard or pommel?

 

Mike

mmerc20, posting. this one is not to bad, the biggest flaw is the cracked pommel. I have had some confederate weapons that had huge air bubbles. This one has the most of the sand cast flaws on the bottom and all the visable filing on the top side.