My next stop, maybe this week will be the Navy Uniform Board. They have filing cabinets filled with information.

Thanks for joining in AB. It's getting good!

 

W

 

W, Thanks to you for starting this very interesting post and also to Tim, Adam and Brian, who have also offered information from their paper resources to try to get to the bottom of this exception that does seem to defy the rules for award of the Expeditionary Medal (EM). To recap, so far, I think we have Adam pointing out that FDR made the first PUC of WW2 on Jan. 2, '42 to the Wake Defenders, and that Gleim documented the first order for 550 clasps in May '42. Clasps in search of a medal, and if I read correctly the clasps are not even mentioned in the BuPers 1946 update of a '42 manual that you have and that only mentions the "W" being worn on the EM drape- with no mention of the clasp. (?!). And how and when was the "W" authorized to be worn on the EM?

 

It just gets curiouser and curioser. If the consensus from you guys is it's still a mystery down the line, I suggest we exercise our right to ask the current Navy people in DC in charge of medals and decorations to show us the executive order, SECNAV authorization, act of congress, or however and when it came to be that the Wake Island defenders were awarded the EM. As you point out, considering that none of those men, brave as they were, could receive their EM's and PTO campaign medals until they were liberated after VJ day, why the rush to dispense with the rules (for award of the Expeditionary Medal)? Instead of breaking those rules (which as you pointed out, in other cases they declined to do and made men elect between medals when a newly authorized medal would have created a "double award"), when the PTO came out in 11/42, why not a special Wake Island device for that ribbon........(that the men couldn't even wear for 3 years since they were POWs).

Tim B nice H-H ribbon board.

Just my 2 cents but why didn't they just put it on the American Defense medal since the Wake Island defenders were obviously in before 7DEC41? And as stated before the should have had a 'P' and 'PHILIPPINE' bar for the defense of the P.I..

I see what you're getting at now. I suppose the whole question falls to the point of when the Wake Island recognition on the Expeditionary Medal was authorized vs. the date the Wake Island defense was added to the campaigns recognized by the A-P Campaign medal. If it was authorized before the A-P Camp. was authorized, then it doesn't break the rules.

 

Another interesting alternative/twist I haven't seen mentioned yet, is what if the Wake Island Bar (and perhaps a "Bataan" bar, or even bars for "Philippines," "Guam," "Hawaii," etc.) were awarded on the American Defense Service Medal?

 

In addition to the difference between being Army vs. Marines, most of the defensive actions in the first few months were routes, whereas the Wake Defenders, very outnumbered, gave the Japanese a shellacking before being over-whelmed. Personally, I think the defenders of the Philippines deserve similar credit for delaying final Japanese conquest for 6 months, as that was noteworthy for the time as well.

I see what you're getting at now. I suppose the whole question falls to the point of when the Wake Island recognition on the Expeditionary Medal was authorized vs. the date the Wake Island defense was added to the campaigns recognized by the A-P Campaign medal. If it was authorized before the A-P Camp. was authorized, then it doesn't break the rules.

 

Another interesting alternative/twist I haven't seen mentioned yet, is what if the Wake Island Bar (and perhaps a "Bataan" bar, or even bars for "Philippines," "Guam," "Hawaii," etc.) were awarded on the American Defense Service Medal?

 

In addition to the difference between being Army vs. Marines, most of the defensive actions in the first few months were routes, whereas the Wake Defenders, very outnumbered, gave the Japanese a shellacking before being over-whelmed. Personally, I think the defenders of the Philippines deserve similar credit for delaying final Japanese conquest for 6 months, as that was noteworthy for the time as well.

 

As soon as War was declared, Both medals became obsolete.

 

The American Defense was awarded for the limited Emergency before the Japanese attack and Declaration of War.

 

The purpose/spirit of the Expeditionary Medal was to recognize MINOR operations overseas that did not warrant a special medal being struck and awarded. When war was declared on a world wide scale, the Exp. Medals should not have been considered.

 

A special medal for service between Dec. 7 and The Battle of Midway could have been awarded.

 

Regards,

 

W

Technically the American Defense medal was awarded up to and including 7DEC41, The medal is authorized to military members who performed active duty between September 8, 1939 and December 7, 1941.So the could have awarded a special bar for this medal.They had other bars for it.War was not declared till 8DEC41, the next day.

 

It's really a moot point since it's not going to change the award of this or another bar.But it does make for an interesting topic of discussion.

Technically the American Defense medal was awarded up to and including 7DEC41, The medal is authorized to military members who performed active duty between September 8, 1939 and December 7, 1941.So the could have awarded a special bar for this medal.They had other bars for it.War was not declared till 8DEC41, the next day.

 

It's really a moot point since it's not going to change the award of this or another bar.But it does make for an interesting topic of discussion.

 

Hi FF.

 

I think we are splitting hairs but the Asiatic Pacific Campaign Medal start date was 7 Dec., not Dec. 8.

A bar for the A-P Medal should/could have been awarded.

 

We had men killed and wounded before Dec. 7 during the Limited Emergency, but no battle stars were awarded to anyone for use on the Am. Def. Medal.

 

Regards,

 

W

Hi FF.

 

I think we are splitting hairs but the Asiatic Pacific Campaign Medal start date was 7 Dec., not Dec. 8.

A bar for the A-P Medal should/could have been awarded.

 

We had men killed and wounded before Dec. 7 during the Limited Emergency, but no battle stars were awarded to anyone for use on the Am. Def. Medal.

 

Regards,

 

W

 

 

Very true about campaign stars on the AD medal.Thats because it was not a campaign medal.But they did issue the 'A' for the following, "A" Device: Awarded to any member of the Navy who served duty in actual or potential belligerent contact with Axis Powers in the Atlantic Ocean between June 22 and December 7, 1941.

 

That limited emergency lasted a little over 2 years, 8SEP39 - 7DEC41.Yes they could have but the bar on the A-P medal but they didn't.They also should have had one for the Philippine Islands that Japanese attacked that day.I never said the A-P start date was 8DEC41.I said thats when we declared war on Japan.

Thanks FF. I agree, they should have given the men and women in the Philippines the same recognition that the Wake Islanders received.

 

Also, we declared war on Japan on 8 December.

 

Regards,

 

W

I should be more clear, the start date for the Asiatic Pacific Campaign was purposely set at Dec. 7. Not the day of declaration of War.

 

I guess you could say that the minute the first shot was fired on 7 Dec., the American Defense Medal went away.

 

W

Do not forget or discount the difference between the Army and Marines. The Marines (and Navy), due to their nature, had awards already available to recognize expeditionary operations, whereas the Army did not. (And this remained unchanged until the establishment of the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal.) Therefore, there was no mechanism to recognize the valliant Philippine defenders. (Could you imagine if it were suggested the ARMY be awarded the Marine Expeditionary medal with "Philippine" bar!?!?)

 

And, while there were Navy and Marine personnel in the defense and fall of the Philippines, it would've been considered patently unfair to award them a medal/bar, if the Army personnel (who made up the vast majority of the force and suffered equally, if not moreso in the hardships) were not awarded something equal...

 

 

 

On the prior point, I recognize the American Defense Service Medal was for the pre-war emergency period, but the folks we're speaking of (Wake, Philippines, Pearl Harbor, etc.) were already awarded the Am. Def. Svc. Med. -- They were all already in the service before the war started, otherwise, they would not have been where they were when the Japanese attacked... It could have been simple AT THAT TIME, with no campaign medals yet established, to award bars for all the defensive actions which happened in the first 6+ months of the war, and simply add some wording to the criteria which made the ADSM an award to also recognize the defensive actions engaged in by our "pre-war," emergency-declaration military. Guam, Philippines, Wake, Hawaii, even Iceland, would have been logical bars to issue, and they fall in-line with the Navy award of the "A" device. Of course, if we are theoretically re-writing the criteria for the ADSM, we could just as theoretically re-write the criteria for the MCEM, to make the Wake bar which was issued (more) legitimate... But, overall, if we are to criticize with the benefit of hindsight, I think it would have been best to recognize the sacrifice and devotion of all branches of service at all the desperate and even hopeless far-flung places with bars on the ADSM, which was awarded to all branches.

 

Americans are stingy with bars, IMO. I don't like issuing bars for every campaign, as we did in WWI, as some ribbons would have to hang to the belt-line for some (especially ships which were very active in the Pacific, where it could lead to 13 or more bars). (WWI Victory Medal ribbons didn't get crazy, because America wasn't involved that long.) Rather, my point is that bars, issued as I point out, would be similar to the Wake bar - a mark of distinction. Something I'm sure we all agree is deserved for the personnel on the Bataan death march (which they never got...). There have been many great, research-provoking threads on this website just in the last few weeks, which have greatly elevated my respect for the defenders of Guam, Philippines, Wake, and Iceland.

We must understand that everyone west of Hawaii, all service branches was on their own. They were forced to do the best they could with what they had. Perhaps all of them should have been awarded a special clasp.

 

Regards,

 

W

mma10mm, That is the point I was trying to make.The AD medal was awarded to ALL branches of the service and pretty much every branch of the services participated in the above battles.So clasps or devices could have been worn on that medal for all branches.

And as stated before this is a moot point because nothing will change but it is a great topic to discuss and reflect upon the scrafices these brave men and women went through.

Ummm, lots of issues to answer here.

 

First and quickly, the Army personnel were in fact commended and received awards for their defense in the Philippines and other locations. They did happen. As I stated earlier, the Army had medals and awards in place where the Navy and Marines used the expeditionary medals for "minor" campaigns that didn't have anything. Wake and even Pearl Harbor were considered "outposts" at the time. Remember, Hawaii became a state in 1959.

 

Thought I would add some information from the Bureau of Navigation Bulletin from February 1942.

 

Here's the presidential citation commending the Wake Island defenders:

And the message from H.H. Arnold:

I think I should emphasize that even by April 1942, there was still not a clear picture of exact details of the battle. This is from the April bulletin and consists of 12 pages of awards for Pearl Harbor & Wake. This is page 2, which deals with the two senior commanders at Wake.

A close up of the comments. Note, it even states that official facts are still unknown.

 

So, I still think they probably chose to award the expeditionary medal at this point as no other dedicated medal existed, though there is no mention of awarding any medal yet.

 

I'll keep looking.

I hate to say it but we are just beating a dead horse.We can not change history or DOD/War or Navy Dept's policy.It's nice to talk about what should or could have been done.But the Navy Department did what they could with what awards they had at the time. Just my 2 pesos.

Yes, I would agree and BuPers appears to have started adhearance to the rules more in 1943.

I had opted not to post page 1 of the April bulletin earlier, as it really doesn't show Wake specific awards but, perhaps a look will show just how many awards were given out. I think it probably overwhelmed them and they didn't have a system in place to cover many circumstances this early on.

As "W" originally started the thread discussing the Expeditionary Medal with Wake device vs the Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal, I don't want to take the discussion too far off-topic and away from that as we start the third page of the thread.

 

The use of campaign/engagement clasps was something that was originally considered for the WW2 era campaign medals and at one point in the early phase of the war, authorized. However, by the time the war ended and the medals were actually being produced, the idea had been scrapped and the use of stars adopted. I believe the last use of clasps were for the American Defense Service Medal and initially did not even mention the "A" device.

 

We have to remember, amendments to initial award authorities occured as more recognition type incidents happened and more thought had to be put into making appropriate awards for each situation. I think future discussions concerning the use of clasps to denote campaigns or engagements on future medals was deemed impractical.

 

Here's a excerpt from the May 1942 Bureau of Navigation Bulletin concerning the ADSM and associated clasps. Note it was initially given precedence over the Good Conduct Medal!! Well, that changed.

 

Tim

Tim:

 

Note what it says on your attachment concerning the Am Def Medal:

 

Para. #2: during the national emergency which PRECEDED the outbreak of war.

 

Once the first shot rang out and first bomb fell on 7 Dec. the Am Def Medal became obsolete and the Asiatic Pacific Medal began.

 

The reason that both medals were award for the same day is simple. The attack did not begin until almost 0800.

 

W

W,

 

I'm not arguing that point? Only stating, as time went on and more information comes to light, the amendants are made to cover more and more circumstances on all awards. Agreed, the ADSM eligibility was already over by December 8th, even though the medal hadn't even been designed yet and would not actually be issued until June/July 1947.

 

Tim

W,

 

I'm not arguing that point? Only stating, as time went on and more information comes to light, the amendants are made to cover more and more circumstances on all awards. Agreed, the ADSM eligibility was already over by December 8th, even though the medal hadn't even been designed yet and would not actually be issued until June/July 1947.

 

Tim

 

 

I agree, everything was indeed in a state of flux for a number of years.

 

W

mma10mm, That is the point I was trying to make.The AD medal was awarded to ALL branches of the service and pretty much every branch of the services participated in the above battles.So clasps or devices could have been worn on that medal for all branches.

And as stated before this is a moot point because nothing will change but it is a great topic to discuss and reflect upon the scrafices these brave men and women went through.

 

Hey, FF!

 

I apologize as I pretty much skip over the posts in italics, because the font is so fine on my tablet that I can't compfortably read it. Now, I realize we have been saying the same thing all along!