83rd Chemical Mortar Bn with Abn tab?

[chcole1]

This is a close up of a pic I'm thinking about purchasing. Has anyone ever seen a Chemical Mortar Bn patch with an Airborne tab? In WWII was it common for soldiers in non-Airborne units to be jump qualified?

 

 

Chris

[Timberwolf]

I think one company of the battalion was glider qualified.

[vzemke]

Company D, 83rd Chemical Mortal Battalion was part of the 1st Airborne Task Force and participated in the Invasion of Southern France. Their airborne assualt was made with gliders.

 

Vance

[chcole1]

I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

 

Chris

[patches]

I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

 

Chris

 

Here,s a very detailed history of this Battalion below. My only question would be why the airborne tab, Glider Qualification Badge would of course be awarded to D company for its Glider Assault in the invasion of Southern France, was the tab just an additional embelishment to commerorate its Air Assault, with it's contiued assignment to the 1st Airborne Task Force and was worn on local authority in D Co, even after it was reassigned back to the Battalion when the 1st Airborne Task Force was disbanded ?

 

http://www.4point2.org/hist-83.htm

[Cobrahistorian]

My uncle Larry was in D Company and was gliderborne for DRAGOON. Can we see the whole pic?

 

This is the only shot I've got of him after going overseas, but you can clearly see the glider assault wings on his uniform. Too bad his shoulder isn't visible!

 

Jon

[chcole1]

Here are the links to the pics.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170753580901?ssPag...984.m1438.l2649

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/180782995008?ssPag...984.m1438.l2649

 

I think there was one more too.

 

Chris

[468abnarm]

This photograph has proved to be most interesting. D Co of the 83rd CM Bn did spend a lot of time attched to Airborne units, and yes it's members did attend "Glider" training and did partitapate in air assualts during the war.

First, all Glider Troops fell under the Airborne Command, so to see a Airborne tab above a units SSI would not be all that uncommon.

Second, as the old saying goes " give a paratrooper (or Glider trooper) 5 minutes of free time and he will have a Airborne tab sewn to somthing.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Airborne tab was NEVER authorized for wear over the 83rd SSI. Now, having said that, there is also no doubt that a young trooper back then who attended "Glider School" and ended up assigned to a Airborne parent unit might not just add the tab on his own.

I notice that the Trooper in question is the only one with a Tab on his Jacket.

Finally, there is just something about the look of that Tab that bothers me. Every time I just glance at it, it strikes me as a newer (bigger) design other than that of the standard design of the day - but who knows.

[mortaydc60]

This is a close up of a pic I'm thinking about purchasing. Has anyone ever seen a Chemical Mortar Bn patch with an Airborne tab? In WWII was it common for soldiers in non-Airborne units to be jump qualified?

Chris

 

 

Hi Chris,

 

I went back into the forum files to find an old post of mine with variations of the 83rd Chem. One which I think members would enjoy seeing. It is from one one the best airborne collections. Mort

[BigJohn#3RD]

Chris,

Interesting subject, back in WWII the military was not as much of a stickler for Regulations, what would they do besides fine them and send them back to combat. I for one think it is cool and interesting, you have to remember that Maj. Gen. Robert T. Frederick December 1944 - September 1945. Gen. Frederick formerly commanded the 1st Special Service Force and the 1st Airborne Task Force. He commanded the 45th until its return to the United States. So I think that he allowed the Dog Company soldiers to continue to wear the airborne tab. I expect that the airborne tabs were locally (theater) made so that may account for the irregular size.

Regards,

John

[patches]

This photograph has proved to be most interesting. D Co of the 83rd CM Bn did spend a lot of time attched to Airborne units, and yes it's members did attend "Glider" training and did partitapate in air assualts during the war.

First, all Glider Troops fell under the Airborne Command, so to see a Airborne tab above a units SSI would not be all that uncommon.

Second, as the old saying goes " give a paratrooper (or Glider trooper) 5 minutes of free time and he will have a Airborne tab sewn to somthing.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Airborne tab was NEVER authorized for wear over the 83rd SSI. Now, having said that, there is also no doubt that a young trooper back then who attended "Glider School" and ended up assigned to a Airborne parent unit might not just add the tab on his own.

I notice that the Trooper in question is the only one with a Tab on his Jacket.

Finally, there is just something about the look of that Tab that bothers me. Every time I just glance at it, it strikes me as a newer (bigger) design other than that of the standard design of the day - but who knows.

 

From what I always read, the non Airbone units, that which the most two prominent ones being Anti Tank Company, 442nd RCT (Nisei), A Company 2nd Chemical Battalion and D Company, 83rd Chemical Battalion, trained for a few weeks with gilders at least before they took to the skys, this in itself may not have qualified them to be awarded the Gilder Qualification Badge, but making that Assault Glider landing surly did, it only took one assault landing, irreguardless of training to be awarded it. I would say that the photos from E-bay would have been taken around V-E day, with the tab being a localy approved one, to be worn by those surviving men of D Company who made the landing. Its interesting to note that the Corporal in the photos has his boots bloused by leggings.

[Cobrahistorian]

Cool stuff to be sure! I've got the 83rd's unit history, "Bastard Battalion" by Terry Lowry, and we have corresponded about D Company (his father was a D Co. vet too). That'd be the first place I'd go to see if the airborne tab was actually authorized for D Co.

 

http://www.35thstar.com/catalog/bastard-ba...n-world-war-ii/

[Gregory]

That's a very interesting thread.

 

I have a few technical and practical questions: In view of the fact that Hitler was not so big idiot to use chemical weapon against the Allies -- what was real task of D Co of the 83rd CM Bn after their glider landing in France? Had they to monitor if the Germans used chemical ammo against the Allies? What was D Co's ammo to use in battlefield reality, because I guess they did not initialize chemical warfare against nazis? Did they operate as a standard mortar support for the airborne troops?

[JCFalkenbergIII]

That's a very interesting thread.

 

I have a few technical and practical questions: In view of the fact that Hitler was not so big idiot to use chemical weapon against the Allies -- what was real task of D Co of the 83rd CM Bn after their glider landing in France? Had they to monitor if the Germans used chemical ammo against the Allies? What was D Co's ammo to use in battlefield reality, because I guess they did not initialize chemical warfare against nazis? Did they operate as a standard mortar support for the airborne troops?

 

 

Gregory. This site explains very well the mission of the Chemical Mortar Battalions.

http://www.4point2.org/hist-93.htm#chapter-1

They mainly used HE in support of the infantry with the ability to lay smoke also. Robert

 

"The 4.2-inch chemical mortar was a multipurpose weapon employed in close support of ground troops. Its versatility was indicated by its ability to fire toxic agents, smoke, and high explosives. In original tactical concept, it was a basic ground weapon for offensive gas warfare. No other weapon approached the gas-delivering capacity of the 4.2-inch mortar. Eight of them could fire over a ton of toxic agent in the span of two minutes. The smoke mission was also a part of the original tactical concept of mortar employment and was one of the reasons for its success in World War II. But the real key to the popularity of the weapon was its ability to fire high explosive shell, a johnny-come-lately as far as chemical missions were concerned."

[468abnarm]

Thanks to all who have posted on this thread. It has been both fun and informative.

[mortaydc60]

Thanks to all who have posted on this thread. It has been both fun and informative.

 

 

Just alittle surprised there were no comments about the patches I showed. Main purpose was to show the theather made patch with the airborne tab incorporated into the patch, which was the question of the original post in the first place. Here you have a rather strong piece of evidence and no comment, just surprised! Mort

[doyler]

That's a very interesting thread.

 

I have a few technical and practical questions: In view of the fact that Hitler was not so big idiot to use chemical weapon against the Allies -- what was real task of D Co of the 83rd CM Bn after their glider landing in France? Had they to monitor if the Germans used chemical ammo against the Allies? What was D Co's ammo to use in battlefield reality, because I guess they did not initialize chemical warfare against nazis? Did they operate as a standard mortar support for the airborne troops?

 

 

In a nut shell they were basically artillery when there was no other artillery.

[doyler]

Just alittle surprised there were no comments about the patches I showed. Main purpose was to show the theather made patch with the airborne tab incorporated into the patch, which was the question of the original post in the first place. Here you have a rather strong piece of evidence and no comment, just surprised! Mort

 

 

Very Cool Mort

 

No comment as I just came to the party

[patches]

Just alittle surprised there were no comments about the patches I showed. Main purpose was to show the theather made patch with the airborne tab incorporated into the patch, which was the question of the original post in the first place. Here you have a rather strong piece of evidence and no comment, just surprised! Mort

 

Your right to a degree, that patch with the AIRBORNE you put up is interesting,thanks, it does pose a question that seems to go unanswered, was D company, because it spent a good deal of time with the 1st Airborne task force allowed to wear a tab over there patch as a locally autherized embelisment, with it continuing to be worn after the unit retured to the Battalion ? On the other hand I think the intial thrust of the topic was a misconception with the airborne tab been the mark of a jump qualilfed Soldier, a Paratrooper, here the guys pointed out this soldier was not jump qualifed, but was a man who was a member of a unit that made a glider assault landing in the invasion of Southern France and explaned the circumstances in which a man in this unit would be wearing a glider badge. Its interesting to note that a airborne tab was not worn by the Anti Tank Company, 442 RCT, at least not to my knowlege.

[Cobrahistorian]

I do know that D/83rd CMB wore their airborne tabs with pride. I can certainly check out Lowry's book and see if it mentions anything about official authorization, and Mort, that is an awesome patch, btw. My hunch is, General Frederick verbally authorized it, or at least gave tacit approval.

 

I can certainly drop Terry an email if any of you guys would like and see if he's got any further insight on the D/83 tabs.

 

Jon

[chcole1]

Great patches Mort. I didn't realize there were times non-Abn units were assigned to gliders. I keep learning more and more about insignia every day on this forum. Thanks for sharing.

 

Chris

 

Just alittle surprised there were no comments about the patches I showed. Main purpose was to show the theather made patch with the airborne tab incorporated into the patch, which was the question of the original post in the first place. Here you have a rather strong piece of evidence and no comment, just surprised! Mort

[468abnarm]

The young corporal in the photo seems to have all the trappings of a young "Trooper" either Para or Glider on his uniform with one exception.

There are no patches of any kind on his oversea cap.

[Gregory]

Gregory. This site explains very well the mission of the Chemical Mortar Battalions.

http://www.4point2.org/hist-93.htm#chapter-1

They mainly used HE in support of the infantry with the ability to lay smoke also. Robert

 

"The 4.2-inch chemical mortar was a multipurpose weapon employed in close support of ground troops. Its versatility was indicated by its ability to fire toxic agents, smoke, and high explosives. In original tactical concept, it was a basic ground weapon for offensive gas warfare. No other weapon approached the gas-delivering capacity of the 4.2-inch mortar. Eight of them could fire over a ton of toxic agent in the span of two minutes. The smoke mission was also a part of the original tactical concept of mortar employment and was one of the reasons for its success in World War II. But the real key to the popularity of the weapon was its ability to fire high explosive shell, a johnny-come-lately as far as chemical missions were concerned."

Thanks a lot for your post! :thumbsup:

[X_redcatcher]

"Second, as the old saying goes " give a paratrooper (or Glider trooper) 5 minutes of free time and he will have a Airborne tab sewn to somthing."

 

AMEN!! and AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY!!

[patches]

The young corporal in the photo seems to have all the trappings of a young "Trooper" either Para or Glider on his uniform with one exception.

There are no patches of any kind on his oversea cap.

 

The way he is attired is typical of the late war/immediate post war period Garrison dress, IKEs with bloused boots, here, instead of the buckle top combat boots which was the common foot gear, he wears a pair of older ankle boots with leggings, a most UNCOMMON choice at this late date. If you look at the photo of this Corporal we see another badge of some type below his ribbons, I can't really make out what that is, it does'nt look like a marksmanship badge, can any one else think of what that is ?