INteresting WW1 Web equipment question

[jgawne]

I am too lazy to go dig one out and shoot it, but you will all know what I mean when I say the thing that looks like a large first aid pouch on a long web strap attached to a 1910 hanger.

 

Over the years I have been a great many tales of what exactly this pouch was used for. Mouinted medical, squad leader pouch, and all kinds of unusual ideas.

 

 

So far NO ONE ( that I know anyway) has been able to come up with any period (as in pre-1920) documentation as to the correct nomencature or use for it.

 

Kindly restore my faith in collecting by having somene here be able to provide a firm period printed reference for it.

 

Many thanks

[artu44]

This piece of equipment is the most discussed one since I started collecting. It seems people periodically become quite excited with it so I'm posting here for the fifth or sixth time an excerpt from the "Handy manual for the organization of new infantry companies. July 25, 1918". I suppose it could be considered an official document. Can you find it?

[Charlie Flick]

Jon:

 

It is nice to see you here on the Forum. I subscribed to your Militaria publication (forgot the name??) many years ago and enjoyed it very much, and was sorry to see it fold.

 

As to your question, my friend Artu has pointed you in the right direction. Here are some more nuggets. The following is from a post by collector/researcher/author Carter Rila aka "Webcat" who used to post on another now-dead Militaria Forum that many of us here used to follow. CR was extremely knowledgeable and backed up his assertions with documents from the National Archives, which was located not far from where he lived. Sadly, our friend CR fell ill a couple of years ago and I don't know what his status is now. He is surely missed as a fountain of knowledge on USGI web gear and edged tools, particularly machetes.

 

This is the substance of a post (lightly edited by me) he made several years ago in response to a forum question about these pouches, which are so often misdescribed:

 

One of the major faults with the M1910 Load Bearing Equipment was the fact it was a fair weather and daylight pack. Once opened to pitch shelter tents and set up a bivouac there was no place to keep the soldier's personal items. No container was provided officially but personal pouches known as ditty bags were commonly acquired. The Social Service Agencies in WWI such as YMCA, Knights of Columbus, Red Cross, all had sewing circles organized to make them and holdalls for towel, soap, razor,etc. Holdalls are pockets with long tapes to tie around the waist while jockeying for position in the latrine to see oneself in the mirror during the morning crush. Though latrines had shelves, the troops crowded three or four deep to get ready.

 

At the same time the infantry squad leader did not carry a tool on the flap of the pack but a wire cutter, leaving the tab free. The result of service in Mexico and on the border led to the adoption of the pouch in 1916. It never had a number name because it did not need one being the only item of its type in the inventory. The official name as listed n the Ordnance Storage Catalog, 1919, was "Pouches for Small Articles". They are commonly referred to by we historians as "Squad Leader Pouches", which is easier to say, and needs no explanation.

 

The Squad Leaders' Pouches were ordered late in the game for issue in 1919, but due to the early end of the war (as planned by the Allies there was to be a great offensive in Spring 1919), the vast majority were not issued though I have seen a few shots of Marines at Quantico with them. Sold off after the war, many had the hooks cut off and the billet folded over and stitched down and sold for civilian first aid kits, ammo pouches, you name it, use.

 

The Squad Leaders Pouch was intended to fit on the tab on the pack where the shovel was typically located. The long strap allowed it to rest neatly so that it fit just below the meat can pouch. The only photo I have around here handy is one that shows the pouch mounted on the belt, which from the foregoing will be understood as an improper mounting, but in the field who cares? If I can find a pic in my archives showing it on the pack I will post it later on.

 

I trust this was what you were looking for.

 

Regards,

Charlie Flick

[artu44]

If I remember well since gunboard times, another unofficial name was M1916 GP pouch. In the pics the pouch is hooked on the upper row of grommets of a pistol belt. This way it hangs below the first aid pouch.

[jgawne]

I have heard all of these, but the one thing I have never seen is the ref in print to it being a foot powder and bandage pouch- which (kind of) makes sense. Although I wonder if it was developed for a different purpose earlier and adapted to that (much like the bacon can went from food to being used to carry toilet articles etc.)

 

I do not however- buy the "never had a number or name because it did not need one being the only item of its type in the inventory" because I have looked at not just the QMC specs files but also the official QMC adoption photos and everything is named- even items that there were only one of. It had to have some kind of nomenclature - even if just pouch, generic, small or how could they have even purchased or stocked them? .

 

Now as it does not appear in tQMC nfiles I did wonder if it was possibly originally an ordnance item... One word on it may years ago was that it was for small repair parts for weapons and cleaning equipment.

 

I can say the very thick 1910 Webbing tests make no mention of it in place of an e-tool and they go into great E tool depth. - and I seem to recall from years ago I tried to make it fit there and it was cumbersome- so while it may have been a place to wear it, but I do not think it was originally designed for that.

 

I just have this funny feeling it was designed for some specifc purpose, then for whatever reason adopted for many different uses. Officialy or unofficially.

 

I have an undated (sadly) listing of a basic load of what rifle companies were supposed to carry when going "over the top" (called the over the top list) curiously every man is supposed to carry foot powder, but there is no mention of a pouch like this. If it was a 1919 item this will explain a lot- so I shall have to watch very carefully to see if it ever shows up in any AEF shots.

 

At one point there HAD to be a document saying why it was designed and bought. That may be lost by now, but I suspect it is out there.

[craig_pickrall]

Charlie, I am happy to see you saved some of Webcat's writting. I wish I had done the same but instead foolishly thought it would be available for ever.

 

We have other threads on this pouch here on the forum. I will look for them.

 

Arturo I had forgotten about the pic of the pouch worn on the pistol belt. Good job!

 

Jon, I think all this did was firm up all the rumors you have heard over the years.

 

I know Webcat had posted a copy of a QM Catalog that showed this pouch listed but that was on a now defunct forum.

[craig_pickrall]

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...ad+leader+pouch

 

Follow the link for more info.

[jgawne]

Following that last link showed a photo with one marked 1917, and mention of two dated 1918.

 

Thus if the 1917 is a real marking (and I have every reason to think so) is in direct oppostion to the statement: "The Squad Leaders' Pouches were ordered late in the game for issue in 1919"

 

I just feel in my bones there is more to this. I have gone through all the 1910-1918 QMC specs and while the other webbing is there- this one is not.

 

So for now the only actual hard evidence is the one ref to it being foot powder and adhesive- but that also is odd as it is a weird shape and size if it were to hold the standard can of foot powder- and according to the period listing that I have every man was supposed to carry a tin of foot powder anyway- so why would there be a need for a special pouch for more in a central squad supply? It i a curious question made more curious by the 1917 dated example.

 

This is now on my list of unfindable information (of which so far I have done pretty well in eventually finding).

[artu44]

Chances are real strong this pouch would be designed in 1916 as general purpose for small parts and found useless. Then, someone had the idea to recover it for footpowder baptizing it with the name you found in the list I posted. In other words, it was the successive purpose which named the pouch and not the original one as usual. I dont believe the tale of the 1919 but for sure there is around an huge quantity of minty pouches dtd 1918. To me it means they arrived too late and never reached Europa. Among french collectors this pouch is quite rare and the few circulating samples are well battered and salty. It could demonstrate that a small number of pouches saw service during WWI. The signal corp pic I posted is the only I ever seen with the darn pouch.

In the pic is another pouch I got monts ago from USA. It's in good conditions and iodine stained. The two footpowder are 1940 contract and are smaller than WWI type.

[jgawne]

Of course I now cannot find mine in the midst of dozens of boxes packed with stuff.

 

I wanted to try to see if it does fit the more typical haversack under the meatcan pouch- as I seem to recall trying it years and years ago and it did not- then see if it fits under the earlier model haversack in which the meatcan pouch is smaller.

 

Its just a puzzle I would love to find a difinitive answer to.

[teufelhund]

I am sorry to tell you, but you are all wrong...

This is only a purse for the YMCA girls, other models are " Louis Vuitton" & " Hermes" one

This is intended to contain, a lipstick, a comb, a mirror and some of Estree Lauder cosmetics

Here is the evidence

HA HA

Teufehund

[jgawne]

So now we know ....

 

I guess that makes the value very low, but I will be happy to take those worthless items for $1....

[jgawne]

I finally dug mine ( and OK, I found so much stuff I totally forgot I ever bought).

 

I did confirm from another source the correct name is "pouch, for small articles" and supposedlyover 2 millkion were made- compared to 4,750,000 First aid pouches.

 

But I tried to connect it to the back of a haversack and as I recall- it kind of fits- but is still a bit awkward. With the meat can in place it bulks out the Meat Can pouch making the fit look better, but while the top edge of the pouch is hidden under the haversack flap, the bottom edge does seem to be pretty close to the bottom of the haversack flap- so it could be the strap seems a little short so as to match the haversack bottom.

 

 

 

I have also found a ref to it as being carried in ordnance stocks- which is interesting.

 

But still want to see a spec or description of it in a period document.

 

(note- I am starting to realize I am no loonger the young kid collector beging for scraps of info at dealer tables- in fact this haversack is marked to a MG unit- and it came in a lot of 12 WW1 dated haversacks I bought from a surplus wholesaler about 1976. I paid $1.75 each for them. )

[jgawne]

So this is what I mean when I say the pouch really does not fit under the meat can pouch- But I have it on another good authority it is officially called the pouch, for small articles and came into use in 1916 (not 1910) - and two million were made by the end of the war... which is a lot!

 

 

see how the top of the pouch flap is under (or very close to) the meat can pouch. Supposedly someone in the Army History folks is digging out the original description of it for me (hopefully to include the official issues and officially stated possible contents.

[reddiamond1918]

Hello,

 

A Squad leader pouch with stencil of Engineer.

 

Found in Saillant of St Mihiel.

 

Bye,

 

cochonou

 

[scooter]

I just read an article that says this pouch may have been a pouch for the "rare" 20 round extension magazine for which a few 1903 springfields were modified. After the magazine was inserted in the rifle it was then top fed with stripper clips and therefore only one magazine was issued per man, and this was the pouch for it.......Maybe???????????

[New Romantic]

I just read an article that says this pouch may have been a pouch for the "rare" 20 round extension magazine for which a few 1903 springfields were modified. After the magazine was inserted in the rifle it was then top fed with stripper clips and therefore only one magazine was issued per man, and this was the pouch for it.......Maybe???????????

 

Looks like I missed a lot of good discussion here last fall, but I'm glad it's been revived.

 

Hi Scooter, I have doubts about the attribution of the pouch being for the 20 rd magazine and I have also seen that claim. What article was that in? I recall that maybe it was in an Osprey Book, one which had many errors.

 

Jon, since the pouch fits oddly on under the meatcan pouch, maybe it fit's better under the first pattern type? I'll dig mine out later and see how the the pouch and early meatcan pouch match up. Of course the 2nd pattern haversacks had been in production since 1914 but maybe the fellow who designed the Pouch for Small Articles used a 1st pattern haversack as a guide.

[New Romantic]

Jon, since the pouch fits oddly on under the meatcan pouch, maybe it fit's better under the first pattern type? I'll dig mine out later and see how the the pouch and early meatcan pouch match up. Of course the 2nd pattern haversacks had been in production since 1914 but maybe the fellow who designed the Pouch for Small Articles used a 1st pattern haversack as a guide.

 

Ok, I tried it, doesn't seem to make much difference.

[Keystone]

From the Annual Report of the Chief of Ordnance, dated October 1, 1916: About half way down the page is the "Pouch for Sergeants"

[craig_pickrall]

That is a great reference. As many of those pouches that have been around for years their idea of a "limited number" must have been 10 million.

[subsystem4]

Has anybody seen theses pouches with the webing and hanger cut off and a simple shoulder strap sewn on?

I had one but i sold it this week.

Any idea if this was done durring WWI or post war?

[m1917m1910]

I am not sure, but I have heard that it is for the Peterson device for the 1903 Springfield.

[El Bibliotecario]

I don't have any digitized pics on file, but my impression was the Pederson device was carried in a molded (plastic?) scabbard with belt hooks, and Pederson magazines in a web pouch with vertical dividers and a top flap hinged at one side.

[robinb]

The Pederson Device was carried in a steel scabbard, not plastic. You are correct about the magazine pouch. There is also a pouch to carry the bolt when it isn't in the rifle.

[bayonetman]

Your pouch with the shoulder strap most likely is a Stokes-Kirk conversion of the pouch we have been discussing. These were commercial conversions to help sell something that would be otherwise hard to sell.

 

The illustration is from the 1926 Stokes-Kirk surplus catalog, item number 123-B: