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Pre WWII Army Engineers Hawaii


gwb123
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We've had a number of photos posted showing troops in Hawaii during the 1930's. I believe these might be from a slightly earlier period.

 

These were found in a vintage clothing store in Honolulu back in the mid-1980's as part of a photo album that was unfortunately being sold picture by picture. At $5 to $15 per photo, I am afraid it was outside of my budget. There were dozens of photos showing Schofield Barracks, the quad areas and soldier's life. Equally impressive there were a number of photos showing public equipment displays, including tractor drawn artillery.

 

Being a uniform collector at the time, I picked the ones that showed a selection of period clothing.

 

We'll start with a unit photo taken in front of one of the barracks.

 

Hawaii Engineers 20 adjust.JPG

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And now a couple of close ups...

 

The look of the flag bearer is very intense, making sure that he has the company colors fully unfurled for the photo. Unfortunately in his hurry to get the job done, he is of course holding it backwards to the camera! I'd imagine he heard about that one later.

 

After that, note that we have two cooks or mess hall attendants on either side of the photo. These are folks that typically get ignored. Note the button up front of his uniform with metal buttons and his headgear.

 

Following that, we have a close up of what appears to be the unit commander. A career soldier, note all of the qualifcation bars he his wearing on his blouse. This is of course contrary to modern practice for officers, who normally rarely wear a marksmanship badge. Also note his glossy full calf boots.

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Additional photo of the unit's NCO's.

 

Notice the difference in uniform styles, with one wearing a high collar uniform, while the others are wearing open breasted blouses.

 

Next, from a separate photo, a unit bugler. He is bearing a side arm on his right side, and he appears to have a lanyard securing his bugler. He is wearing the division patch, and has a double set of insignia on his high collar. Could this be where the unit crest was worn at the time?

 

If you look closely at his chevrons, he looks to have a specialty mark in the middle of the chevron. And also, if you look at his ammunition pouch, it appears to also have an added insignia on the flap.

Hawaii_Engineers_23_NCOs_small.JPG

Hawaii_Engineers_8_small.JPG

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For those of you who know any Army Engineers, most of them are more comfortable in the field.

 

This next photo is a platoon sitting in front of a water tank. I remember reading that this was one of the accomplishments of the Army Engineers in the 1920's, bringing water storage to the more arid parts of Oahu.

 

The close up features there 1LT platoon leader. Note that in the center of his campaign hat it looks like he is wearing the unit crest for the 3rd Engineers.

 

Hawaii_Engineers_1A_close_LT_small.JPG

Hawaii Engineers 1A.JPG

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Third Engineer DUI, courtesy of the Center of Heraldry website.

 

Also from the last photo a close up of some of the characters in the back row. The one gentleman looks like he would be at home riding on the range. On his left is a soldier who appears to be very young.

 

One curiosity is the short length and square cut of their ties. They almost look like they were not designed to be worn without the four pocket blouse as they are rather short.

3EngrBnDUI.jpg

Hawaii_Engineers_1A_close_EM_small.JPG

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Another one from the field. It is hard to tell if this is a military member of the unit or a hired civilian. It also makes me wonder if this was taken in Hawaii, as he is carrying a side arm. Note the civilian style hat, scarf, military tents in the background and the survey equipment.

 

(The holes in the photo are the unfortunate affect of wood boring insects who mangaged to chew their way through the album.)

 

And our last one shows a soldier very much relaxed in his field uniform. If you will look closely he is armed with a bayonette on the left side. It is very possible he was preparing for guard mount. It also looks like he also has some type of insignia added to his ammunition pouches.

Hawaii_Engineers_5_small.JPG

Hawaii_Engineers_6_small.JPG

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...Notice the difference in uniform styles, with one wearing a high collar uniform, while the others are wearing open breasted blouses...Next, from a separate photo, a unit bugler....He is wearing the division patch, and has a double set of insignia on his high collar. Could this be where the unit crest was worn at the time...If you look closely at his chevrons, he looks to have a specialty mark in the middle of the chevron....

The OD lapel coat was authorized Army-wide in 1926 and the Khaki lapel coat in 1929 but the wear-out period for the standing collar coat dragged on for years and some soldiers even had their standing collar coats modified to a version of the new lapel style (See Emerson). So, your group picture of Co. C, 3rd Engineers, and the close ups from it, most likely dates from about 1930 or later.

 

The unit bugler's picture was most likely taken earlier, although his DI looks like it might be 3rd Engineers as well (and yes, that was correct DI positioning for the standing collar coat in the 1920s). The bugler is wearing the "unauthorized" (but widely tolerated) chevron for the rank of PFC and Sixth Class Specialist that was created in 1920. The chevron appears to been created by cutting the top two stripes off of the chevron of a Sergeant Bugler chevron, a rank that was abolished in 1920. Link here to see another example of this chevron (also worn at Schofield Barracks) and an even stranger one being worn somewhere in Alaska.

 

In any case, these are great pictures, Gil...and your bugler is a particularly good example of unusual period insignia.

=================

I notice that this topic's title refers to "24th Infantry Division" so I will take this opportunity to drag out my soapbox again to point out that "24th Infantry Division" did not exist until October 1941. The Infantry division at Schofield Barracks in 1920s and 1930s was the Hawaiian Division. Here are the relevant entries from the Division Lineage:

 

Constituted 1 February 1921 in the Regular Army as Headquarters, Hawaiian Division

 

Activated 1 March 1921 at Schofield Barracks, Hawaii

 

Reorganized and redesignated 1 October 1941 as Headquarters, 24th Infantry Division

 

Perhaps a watching moderator will fix the title (and sorry to hijack your topic, Gil).

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Those circular things you refer to as "insignia," are M1919 Equipment Marking Tags. They appear on ebay frequently. They were used to mark each soldier's individual equipment. Each branch had their branch insignia (crossed rifles for Infantry, a castle for Engineers and etc.) on the disks along with "US" and the soldier's unit and company number stamped onto them.

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Those circular things you refer to as "insignia," are M1919 Equipment Marking Tags. They appear on ebay frequently. They were used to mark each soldier's individual equipment. Each branch had their branch insignia (crossed rifles for Infantry, a castle for Engineers and etc.) on the disks along with "US" and the soldier's unit and company number stamped onto them.

 

Cool. I will have to look for these. But at least these photos provide a good view of them in use. Thanks for posting.

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Next, a very dapper young corporal wearing a tropical weight dress uniform, with shoes shined.

 

Aloha this is a very interesting grouping of early Hawaiian Division's, 3rd Engineer Regiment photos. I also recall going to the Hawaiiana Antique Show at the Blaisdell Center during the early 80's and seeing a few venders selling photo albums exactly as you had stated. Matter of fact over the years many albums had been sold in the same fashion. Several of the Semi-annual Gun Shows also held at the Blaisdell would have the same venders selling off photo albums, menus, programs and magazines in the same manner.

 

My Dad (aka: ainahina) makes a good call on this grouping coming from the mid-1920's at the time of the uniform transitional stage from standing collar to lapel coats. Although a majority of the soldiers do wear the 1924 pattern lapel coats in the group photos and few of the unfortunates or maybe die hards still sport the standing collar coats. It is my belief that during this transition period insignia placement was fluid and regulations was unclear and/or relaxed for several years. This particular photo is a very good illustration of this. Notice how both the collar discs and 3rd Engineer Regiment DIs are on the upper portion of the lapel...It almost follows the same placement as if it were a standing collar. Enlisted Coats made by local tailor shops like Hook-On had pre-positioned holes on the upper and lower portions of the lapels for the proper placements of the collar insignia. Collar brass on the lower lapel and DI's on the upper lapel. It's always great to see stuff like this especially when regulations were not always adhere too.

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Aloha this is a very interesting grouping of early Hawaiian Division's, 3rd Engineer Regiment photos. I also recall going to the Hawaiiana Antique Show at the Blaisdell Center during the early 80's and seeing a few venders selling photo albums exactly as you had stated. Matter of fact over the years many albums had been sold in the same fashion. Several of the Semi-annual Gun Shows also held at the Blaisdell would have the same venders selling off photo albums, menus, programs and magazines in the same manner.

 

My Dad (aka: ainahina) makes a good call on this grouping coming from the mid-1920's at the time of the uniform transitional stage from standing collar to lapel coats. Although a majority of the soldiers do wear the 1924 pattern lapel coats in the group photos and few of the unfortunates or maybe die hards still sport the standing collar coats. It is my belief that during this transition period insignia placement was fluid and regulations was unclear and/or relaxed for several years. This particular photo is a very good illustration of this. Notice how both the collar discs and 3rd Engineer Regiment DIs are on the upper portion of the lapel...It almost follows the same placement as if it were a standing collar. Enlisted Coats made by local tailor shops like Hook-On had pre-positioned holes on the upper and lower portions of the lapels for the proper placements of the collar insignia. Collar brass on the lower lapel and DI's on the upper lapel. It's always great to see stuff like this especially when regulations were not always adhere too.

I believe that the DUI's placed on upper part of the lapels above the BOS disks was the early regulation positioning of the DUI when standing collars were replaced. At least this is evidenced photographically in images I have seen of soldiers in Hawaii and other places. Does anyone have the early Army Regulations that will answer this?

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...I believe that the DUI's placed on upper part of the lapels above the BOS disks was the early regulation positioning of the DUI when standing collars were replaced...Does anyone have the early Army Regulations that will answer this?

I just asked Santa to bring me a copy of AR 600-40 Wearing of Service Uniform (ed. Nov. 25, 1924). When I get it, I will post info here about DI placement on standing collar coats. Still looking for the ca. 1930 ed. of AR 600-40, which covers lapel coat insignia placement. Keep your fingers crossed.

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  • 1 month later...

 

 

...I believe that the DUI's placed on upper part of the lapels above the BOS disks was the early regulation positioning of the DUI when standing collars were replaced. At least this is evidenced photographically in images I have seen of soldiers in Hawaii and other places. Does anyone have the early Army Regulations that will answer this?

Although Santa's Hercules nearly blew my trailer over when it landed, he did come through with my "Special Delivery" on his way to the Mainland. AR 600-40 (Nov. 24, 1924) is now in hand. Unfortunately, this edition the Army's regulation on wearing the uniform does not tell us exactly where unit distinctive insignia were worn on the standing collar coats. However, here is the text of the non-rule:

post-1963-1230169348.jpg

The cumbersome practice of individually prescribing the manner of wearing distinctive insignia for each unit undoubtedly was soon modified to a standardized rule but, in the meantime, what we see worn in period photographs probably accurately reflect the rules that were laid down in these letters of authority.

Here is one unit picture taken at almost the same time this edition of AR 600-40 was issued: Company A, 21st Infantry, Schofield Barracks, T.H., December 25, 1924 (Merry Christmas, Engineers: Essayons!) Note that the entire company is wearing the standing collar blouse and that the 21st Infantry D.I. is uniformly worn (where it is visible) on the collar next to the collar disk, except the Commanding Officer, who wears the D.I. on his epaulets.

(BROKEN LINK REMOVED)

In Gil Burkett's photo of Company C, 3rd Engineers (posts #1, 2, & 3), all but a few soldiers are wearing the O.D. lapel-collar coat that entered service in 1926. As only a handful of hold-outs are taking advantage of the indefinite wear-out period for the standing collar coat, this picture presumably can be dated to the late 1920s or even early 1930s, although the khaki lapel-collar coat was authorized in 1929 and troops in the tropics were quick to get into this relatively cooler uniform (see post #4). In any case, the D.I.s visible on the lapel-collar coats in this series of pictures all appear to be worn "above" the collar disc (while the standing collar hold outs wear the D.I. next to their collar disks and the officer pictured wears his on his epaulets). The uniformity of D.I. placement in these pictures strongly suggests that some was a directive behind this level of consistency, either in the form of changes to AR 600-40, or modifications to the letters of authority previously mentioned, or in the form local orders. The next full edition of AR 600-40 came in 1930 and it is on my list for next Christmas. Stay tuned.

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  • 4 years later...
Kaneoheboy

34th Engineer vehicles pre Dec. 7, 1941. PFC Stanley J. Leas with the command car, both photos taken on Oahu.

 

Kaneoheboy

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post-11381-0-61030400-1373331999.jpg

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