Glidermans patch on hat

[francophile50]

I address this to all the relative experts here. I have potrayed a Glider infantryman in the past and have worn a uniform in thier honor. In the past I have worn a combined cap insignia on the smooth side of the garrison cap as I was told they did on D-day. I was later corrected by a veteran gliderman who told me that even the enlisted wore the glider patch on the reverse side and thier D.I.s on the obverse side. He told me that they wore only the patch with the glider and not the combined patch. I did a little research and found a website with vintage pictures showing just that. The pictures show the patch sewn over the braid facing the wrong direction. I can no longer find an example of this or the website. Can anyone help? Some people think I made this up or saw a reverse picture. Sincerely, Scott

[ABrangerjoe]

Well I can't help you with the website, but I guess there are small differences within different outfits. Is this photo a reversed one? Is that a patch on his left sleeve or a shadow? I've mainly seen the ABN/Glider patches on the wearer's left side of the cap.

 

*Nevermind- I just noticed the direction of the buttons on the shirt and the tie tuck

 

-Joe

[1944]

I know members of the 401st GIR did wear them on the right side of the Hat

and also i have seeing photos of the 327th GIR also wearing them on the left side of the Hat

Hope this helps in what you were looking for !

[francophile50]

Joe, 1944, I'm calling the smooth side the Obverse or side that doesn't have the braid taper down and the other side the reverse. The picture I included of the soldier holding the helmet I think is a enlisted man. I don't see rank on his coller or shoulders. I don't see rank on his sleeve so I guess he was a buck private. I see the man has the patch sewn to the reverse side facing backwards with no rank on the obverse. Do you think some units like the 401st all wore them on the other side or was this up to the individual? Scott

[Allan H.]

I address this to all the relative experts here. I have potrayed a Glider infantryman in the past and have worn a uniform in thier honor. In the past I have worn a combined cap insignia on the smooth side of the garrison cap as I was told they did on D-day. I was later corrected by a veteran gliderman who told me that even the enlisted wore the glider patch on the reverse side and thier D.I.s on the obverse side. He told me that they wore only the patch with the glider and not the combined patch. I did a little research and found a website with vintage pictures showing just that. The pictures show the patch sewn over the braid facing the wrong direction. I can no longer find an example of this or the website. Can anyone help? Some people think I made this up or saw a reverse picture. Sincerely, Scott

 

 

The photo is from Mark Bando's "Trigger Time" website. I am sure he'll appreciate it when you are able to give him proper credit for the use of his photo.

 

As for the cap patch, 1944 has given you all of the info that you require to understand the reason for this patch being worn on the opposite side of the cap. The negative is not flipped.

Allan

[glenm]

Francophile - you will get a more accurate answer if you tell us (or me at least) which Regiment and which specific time-period you are/were recreating as a glider infantryman.

 

The answer to your question differs wildly depending on the unit and time-frame. No-one can give you a correct exact answer based on the premise in your original post, sorry.

 

Cheers,

Glen.

[francophile50]

My appologises to the group. I didn't wish to offend anyone by placing pictures here uncredited. I only wish to illustrate what I was talking about. Yes, the photo of the soldier holding a helmet was from www.101airborneww2.com Mark Brado's website, the other was from a Flickr album entitled: Grampa Engesser.

I was attempting to portray a soldier from thr 325th infantry of the 82nd AB from 1942 to 1945. THe gentlemen whom I spoke to probably game me his unit but I forgot it. He corrected me and told me he wore his patch on the reverse side and his D.I. on the obverse side during the war. Scott

[J_Andrews]

1. The soldier in photo is holding a helment with the proper marking for 2nd Bn, 401st -- which was ATTACHED to the 327th as its THIRD Battalion and indeed was often called "3/327th". The other Bn of the 401st was sent to the 82nd and attachment to the 325th.

 

2. For a soldier to wear a DUI on the obverse curtain, he (and his unit) would need to HAVE a DUI. Though the 401st had an approved design from its pre-war years in the Organized Reserve, IIRC it was not made and issued during WWII. Perhaps the 2/401 wore the 327th DUI -- but their usual efforts to distinguish themselves from their hosts would belie that.

 

3. The cap disc's placement was "subject to negotiation". In the early days, the para disc was worn by officers on the obverse side with their rank emblem pinned over it. IIRC one of the FA Bns of the 17th wore their disc on the "wrong" side, just to be different (maybe Stateside only?).

[17thairborne]

According to Gerard Devlin in his book "Paratrooper", the cap insignia was initially to be worn on the left side for both officers and enlisted troops. In 1943 the regulations made it "law" and directed the officer’s cap insignia to be worn on the left side of the cap. This caused a problem as the combination of cap patch and rank insignia made identification of the officer's rank difficult even at moderate ranges. This practice was discontinued and the officer’s cap patch was later moved to the right side of the cap. (1)

 

(1) Gerard Devlin, Paratrooper! (New York: St. Martin’s Press, 1979), p. 92

 

Oz

[17thairborne]

I've also seen photos of the glider facing the wrong way!

Oz

[francophile50]

Wow! The more I learn the less I know. So I guess the vet I spoke with was in the 401st sent to the 82nd and attached to the 325th(?) I guess this was done to distinguish themselves apart and retain thier individuality. I wonder if this was unofficial or condoned by upper escelion officers. Scott

[glenm]

Hi Scott,

 

Going with the easy response first, HQ/325, 1/325 and 2/325 left the USofA with the rest of the 82nd to head to North Africa wearing the combined para/glider patch with red border.

 

3/325 (2/401) would have been wearing the 101st-type glider-only patch when they were part of the 101st in England pre-March 1944 (when they were split off and transfered to the 82nd) on the right/non-smooth/Officer's side of the cap, with the glider facing backwards. Wearing the patches on this side was a definite 101st thing (in both parachue and glider units) when they were in England during 1944. It can be seen when replacements arrive in units as unit photos then show GI's in the same unit with patches on either side of their caps...!

 

Fo illustration (and note how many of these guys don't have patches on at all), here's a part of a C/501 company photo in England pre-June 1944:

 

 

What 3/325 (2/401) wore once they arrived in the 82nd in March 1944 is unknown to me at present (have no reference photos of them during this time period, only later on in the war when they are wearing the combined para/glider patch). Did they change the combined straight away? Don't know, sorry. They certainly did at some point, same as the 508th PIR did once they were brought into the 82nd roster (they arrived to the 82nd wearing the parachute-only patch and seem to have managed to keep that distinction for few months at least).

 

Cheers,

Glen.

[glenm]

Just to keep this thread slightly alive I'll ask a question:

 

Does anyone have any photos of 3/325 GIR (i.e. 2/401 GIR) personnel definitely from the pre-Normandy to Holland era where they are wearing Garrison Caps?

 

Cheers,

Glen.