NS Meyer Airship wing - Originals vs. Restrikes

[MikeK]

My own thoughts on the reversed Meyer shield are that someone in Meyer was basically trying to save time marking their items - but messed up in the process. From what I understand, the accepted genuine reversed marking is RAISED - that seems to be the type I've seen referenced as coming from veterans and I further understand dates the pieces to wartime (someone correct me if I am wrong, as that's an important point). Regardless of timing though, the raised marking means the reversed shield is part of the die (it is recessed into the die and produces a positive feature on the item produced from the die), not a marking that has been applied later. A stamped marking is one that has been separately applied with a punch after the item has been produced (I'm not necessarily talking about a finished product, just the "body" of the eg wing, badge or insignia). I get the impression that at some stage Meyer punched/stamped their shield marking (that they would have been using to stamp into their individually produced items) into the actual dies themselves (either that or the shield was incorrectly engraved into the dies such that it appeared correct on the dies). If the die is marked, every piece produced from it is marked, which means no-one has to stand around applying maker or sterling markings to thousands of items, therefore saving time.

 

You have to think about it, but a when you see a stamped maker mark on an item the punch used to make that mark actually has the marking in reverse on the punch. When it is punched, the item shows the marking correctly. When you put that same marking onto a die (ie you stamp a die with a reversed punch), it looks correct on the die BUT gets reversed when an item is made from the die. It probably didn't take Meyer too long to realise someone stuffed up, but it would have taken a while for new dies to be made (or the original ones somehow repaired) so the incorrectly marked dies would had to have been used in the interim.

 

If you want to experiment, get hold of a rubber stamp and something soft! It's the same principle as type-setting on old newspapers, except with a "3-D" raised/stamped aspect to consider.

 

For me, from what I understand, a reversed RAISED hallmark should actually be a good sign based on the provenance of the items it appears on. A STAMPED reversed hallmark just does not make sense to me though as it would mean a punch was used that, when you looked at it, was not reversed. I'm guessing that a stamped reversed shield is someone trying to reproduce the genuine RAISED reverse marking.

 

I'd really like to hear if there are Meyer items with a STAMPED reversed shield that have veteran provenance though (and if so, what period) - that would certainly have to change my own thinking!

 

Regards

Mike

[pfrost]

I have always suspected that someone made a "template" by drawing the NS Meyer shield on a bit of paper or film or something like that. They then used it almost like a stencil when making the dies or stamps for their insignia. Really, the reverse hallmark is a mirror image of the regular hallmark. In my mind, I believe that who ever was using the template, simply flipped the template the wrong side over, and so you have the opposite pattern (ie a reversed hallmark). It was most likely a rather subtle mistake that no one was really paying attention too, so it wasn't corrected. I can imagine that depending on how the stencil or template was laid out, some of the dies or stamps were in the correct orientation and some came out in a mirror image. Nothing more than that.

[armillary_journey]

I have always suspected that someone made a "template" by drawing the NS Meyer shield on a bit of paper or film or something like that. They then used it almost like a stencil when making the dies or stamps for their insignia. Really, the reverse hallmark is a mirror image of the regular hallmark. In my mind, I believe that who ever was using the template, simply flipped the template the wrong side over, and so you have the opposite pattern (ie a reversed hallmark). It was most likely a rather subtle mistake that no one was really paying attention too, so it wasn't corrected. I can imagine that depending on how the stencil or template was laid out, some of the dies or stamps were in the correct orientation and some came out in a mirror image. Nothing more than that.

 

 

Here is an interesting point Patrick, I have some wings with some of these reversed Meyer in the shields, however ONLY the Meyer is reversed on mine, the letters creating the New York are correct in appearance.

I think it was Bob made an interesting point earlier, I have also seen the Meyer in reverse raised, and incised. I have yet to see the New York reversed along with the reversed Meyer, but, there's a heck of alot I haven't seen.

[armillary_journey]

Here is an interesting point Patrick, I have some wings with some of these reversed Meyer in the shields, however ONLY the Meyer is reversed on mine, the letters creating the New York are correct in appearance.

I think it was Bob made an interesting point earlier, I have also seen the Meyer in reverse raised, and incised. I have yet to see the New York reversed along with the reversed Meyer, but, there's a heck of alot I haven't seen.

 

 

Sure wish the edit option was up and running still. I'd erase that last post. The whole thing is reversed as Patrick said. Sorry Patrick. I was having an alzheimers moment.

[Josh B.]

I dont collect wings, but do pursue WWII era and earlier sub badges for my collection. When I started the below thread, I originally intended it to be a "show us your WWII and earlier Meyer sub badge variant thread". Many outstanding examples of WWII and earlier of Meyer produced insignia are show here, and since I started it, its grown to become an open forum for earlier sub badges produced by all makers, though a few post war examples were posted by various members.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=97499

 

In a nutshell, there is more than enough evidence to convince me that reverse meyer hallmarks are legitimate and were produced during the period. In fact, I look for them. From memory (which might not be great), most all of them I've seen were the raised type hallmarks that were reversed. I'm attaching a pic of a WWII sub badge which came directly from the veteran's son- I have his patrol badge as well, but that was made by a different company. It clearly shows the reverse hallmark, and it has rock solid provenance. I'm sure others have examples too, but may not be looking under the airship thread.

 

Josh

[senhoragua]

I am not well up on Computer-Aided Design/Computer-Aided Manufacturing (CAD/CAM) technology but it has been around for many years and will basically allow most any one to either fabricate, restore, mill or duplicate any object needed when using the original for a guide.

 

Duncan Campbell and I had a couple of discussions about this about twenty or twenty-five years ago after Alan Beckman of Fox Military Equipment Co. was quoted as saying he could duplicate any badge using the new CAD/CAM technology; therefore, we believed that when he acquired some of the original N. S. Meyer wing badge dies he did not get the original force tools, also known as reverse dies or male backplates, to go with them that were needed to punch (produce) new restrikes. His solution may have been to have new force tools fabricated via CAD/CAM technology, using various size N.S. Meyer hallmarks, but when the hallmarks were copied, they were copied backwards... and that may explain why the letters on the hallmarks are in reversed order.

 

:think: Changing the subject a bit, I also believe more sophisticated CAD/CAM technology is being used by the Chinese to make a number of WWII wing badge copies such as the Firmin Service pilot badges discussed in thread... http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=98853

It may be of some interest that I'd found that the aforementioned Alan Beckman (ebay seller usnusa & specialistauction seller usn88ausa1) indeed did go to both the liquidations of N.S. Meyer and Russell insignia houses. Among his usual fantasies, he peddles cast hybrid items comprised of USN warrant officer and police insignia elements as belonging to the Maritime Service on incorrect-date Russell insignia cards. He has sent out some of his orders to International Insignia (the people that do jobs for Vanguard) for restrikes, and has had strikes done for NOAA items by them as well. It appears that much of his woven stock originates from Pakistan.

It may be inferred that through his long relationship with International, that he has had use of their CAD technology for die manufacture and reproduction insignia production.

I'll bet he googles himself from time to time and has a big chuckle...

[B-17Guy]

My own thoughts on the reversed Meyer shield are that someone in Meyer was basically trying to save time marking their items - but messed up in the process. From what I understand, the accepted genuine reversed marking is RAISED - that seems to be the type I've seen referenced as coming from veterans and I further understand dates the pieces to wartime (someone correct me if I am wrong, as that's an important point). Regardless of timing though, the raised marking means the reversed shield is part of the die (it is recessed into the die and produces a positive feature on the item produced from the die), not a marking that has been applied later. A stamped marking is one that has been separately applied with a punch after the item has been produced (I'm not necessarily talking about a finished product, just the "body" of the eg wing, badge or insignia). I get the impression that at some stage Meyer punched/stamped their shield marking (that they would have been using to stamp into their individually produced items) into the actual dies themselves (either that or the shield was incorrectly engraved into the dies such that it appeared correct on the dies). If the die is marked, every piece produced from it is marked, which means no-one has to stand around applying maker or sterling markings to thousands of items, therefore saving time.

 

You have to think about it, but a when you see a stamped maker mark on an item the punch used to make that mark actually has the marking in reverse on the punch. When it is punched, the item shows the marking correctly. When you put that same marking onto a die (ie you stamp a die with a reversed punch), it looks correct on the die BUT gets reversed when an item is made from the die. It probably didn't take Meyer too long to realise someone stuffed up, but it would have taken a while for new dies to be made (or the original ones somehow repaired) so the incorrectly marked dies would had to have been used in the interim.

 

If you want to experiment, get hold of a rubber stamp and something soft! It's the same principle as type-setting on old newspapers, except with a "3-D" raised/stamped aspect to consider.

 

For me, from what I understand, a reversed RAISED hallmark should actually be a good sign based on the provenance of the items it appears on. A STAMPED reversed hallmark just does not make sense to me though as it would mean a punch was used that, when you looked at it, was not reversed. I'm guessing that a stamped reversed shield is someone trying to reproduce the genuine RAISED reverse marking.

 

I'd really like to hear if there are Meyer items with a STAMPED reversed shield that have veteran provenance though (and if so, what period) - that would certainly have to change my own thinking!

 

Regards

Mike

I think this is the best explanation of the "reverse Meyer" so far.

I have a number of pieces that have the raised reverse Meyer shield, that are 100% good, from wings to collar insignia.

Some, coming right from the vet's family.

At the same time, I have seen pieces with the stamped reverse Meyer that are bad.

Actually, I don't recall seeing a raised reverse Meyer piece that was bad, and a stamped reverse Meyer that was good.

My two cents.

 

Best, John