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WWII & Pre-WWII Submarine Dolphins


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Hi Josh,

 

No, I am pretty much in agreement with your views on this.

 

If you look at this HH-Viking lable for buttons, it states "The Viking" which tells me it's a specific quality of device, which is probably similar to Meyer Gold which held it's finish better. I have never seen a company called Viking.

 

I have discussed this with some EGA collectors and some also feel that the Imperial mark also signified a particular product and not a company hallmark. I have never seen anything marked just Imperial by itself, have you?

 

Regarding insignia and changes in design or metal used. We don't see this type of information in the uniform regs once WW2 started. Prior to the war, it was hit or miss but once the war started they leave that information out. If you look at some regs, they call out "specification sheets" that list the details of various insignia. The spec sheets call out the overall design, dimensions and type of metal to be used. What is interesting is, the regs state, the specification sheets were available for purchase. When you think who would want to purchase this informaton, I can only think of manufacturers that needed the information in order to produce an item and meet those standards set by the military.

 

I have yet to find a single specification sheet for Navy insignia but did find one for Army.

 

Tim

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Yeah, maybe more Imperial are out there but the Sterling really aren't all that rare either. Three sold in a row on ebay last month. Two were good, one was fake. All three went for about the same price. I've yet to see any fake H-H imperial, but I've seen people really get burned with repro H-H sterling examples.

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I usually look for the ones with the gold worn and the sterling patina showing. Of course, others always wanted them more than I did. -_- Eventually.

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Mirror- bright finishes are generally a no-no on WWII and earlier sub insignia, unless they're solid 10K or greater. I have to admit, many of the H-H sterling sterling badges did not age with grace, including the example in my collection. The same can be said of many AMICO badges. Lots of black oxidation that's come through the gold plate- not super attractive but I can't rationalize dropping any antique insignia in jewelery cleaner either though...

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Personally, I rather prefer the ones that have the patina contrast. Just something about them that really pops!

 

Not mine unfortunately.

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  • 4 months later...

Just picked this badge up this week. I believe it is a pre WWII badge struck by Sheridan Engraving and Metal Stamping Co of Perth Australia. The badge is die struck and the center support has been removed. Unfortunately, the hallmark is faint but it is visible. It is hallmarked Sheridan 846 Hay St which was the address of the business which opened at that address in 1924.

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Excellent Sheridan example! Imo typical wartime example though, as I don't see why Perth would have been making any US insignia before 1942. The US sub base at Fremantle was not established until March 1942.

 

Regards

Mike

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I was thinking pre-war based on the construction of the badge. The center support, which has been removed, was a feature linked to pre-war construction. US subs did operate in the area prior to hostilities so I would guess there might have been a liberty or two taken in the area. I can't say I have seen pictures of other Sheridan sub badges other than those shown in the "US Silent Service" book but the construction on this pair is completely different than those examples shown. The owner was a USNA grad and I have his last name. Hopefully I can find something to support my theory. John

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Hi John,

 

My own example of this type (same markings but unfortunately all hardware removed - probably used for display on something) came with a grouping to a sailor off the USS Blenny, which was only commissioned in 1944 and was only in berthed in Fremantle twice (January and June 1945), after it's 1st and 3rd war cruises.

 

Sheridan may have made US insignia pre-war (I'd have thought demand would have been too low to justify die manufacture and production though) but this type was imo definitely produced during the war.

 

Regardless, I totally agree with Robert's comment above though!

 

Regards

Mike

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  • 1 month later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Josh,

 

Again, many thanks for the confirmation on the catch. Hopefully...I will recieve my book in the next few days now that I told Amazon to either ship it or refund my money.

 

Concerning scarcity; how does this HH-Imperial example fit in with the deep waves that are marked - "sterling + 120 10K"?

 

Tim

 

Hi Tim,

 

My responses with photos are glacially slow, but thought you might still enjoy seeing this comparison from my collection. All three of these show variant HH-Imperial hallmarks. The second two insignia in this photo have the "heavy" variant roller, and the first has the classic "4 nub" roller.

 

Josh

 

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  • 5 months later...

Hi Josh,

 

Been away and hope to spend some more time online now, time will tell.

 

Interesting variations on the hallmarks, thank you for adding these.

 

Unfortunately, I have nothing new to add...

 

Tim

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  • 3 months later...
  • 2 months later...

That mark is not so much a scratch but actually a square shaped indentation, of which you're only pointing to a portion of. Closer inspection will show the area is recessed into the surface, probably from the die strike.

 

Here's a close up of the area. The lighting in the photo makes it look raised but its actually an indentation.

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The other thing I would point out regarding that supposed die flaw is, if you compare these side by side, the examples marked with the "smaller H-H eagle and Imperial" do not have this indentation and IMO are from a different die altogether. Whether Hilborn Hamburger used multiple production dies (cut from a master die) or how many different production dies might have been used over time is unknown, but I would imagine these dies continued to be used post WW2 to some extent.

 

Here's a comparison of three like badges. All are within a tenth of a millimeter of each other in overall dimensions, but if you look carefully at the reverse, you can see the Imperial marked example with the heavier style roller (bottom) has a thicker upper edge along the dolphins and submarine outline. This trait seems to be consistent within this particular pattern of these Type-2 badges.

 

Tim

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A badge worn by an officer in S boats in China and Panama in the late 1920s and early 1930s.

 

Can't delete duplicate photos. Perhaps a moderator can.

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A badge worn by an officer in S boats in China and Panama in the late 1920s

Outstanding early theater example with provenance. Very scarce. Thanks for sharing!

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Yes, I've seen this type of hardware used before as well and wings do come to mind, though I cannot remember exactly where I've seen examples or find any pics off hand. I know some period sweetheart pins also used this style and I thought...they were of English manufacture.

 

Tim

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Hard to say. The trombone clasp was popular from the late 1800's well into the 1940's on European jewelry. However, period examples of Chinese, or perhaps, Hong Kong, produced jewelry from the same era sometimes also have trombone clasps. European produced submarine dolphins never made any sense to me (the service was barely there in WWII, and had only a slight presence in WWI compared to the surface fleet), but the submarine force had a rich prewar history in southeast Asia and the canal zone. If the provenance is rock solid, I'm assuming it was made somewhere in Asia- probably China or the Phillipines, with a slight chance of having come from a Coco Solo or St. Thomas jeweler.

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