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WWII & Pre-WWII Submarine Dolphins


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  • 1 month later...

Nice H&H hallmarked additions Josh. There's nothing like an attributed badge with a personalized inscription on the reverse! Thanks for sharing the quality images with us.

 

Russ

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The deep wave is a brass/bronze HH-Imperial marked example.

 

The PIC's do not really capture the sharpness, mostly due to an older camera/lighting setup. It's really quite nice and I believe circa 1942-'44 with that hallmark.

 

post-50776-0-58566000-1381285480.jpg

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Josh mentioned the style catch here is actually a variation, so I will post a couple of closeups. I'm STILL waiting on my copy of Jone's reference.

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Thanks for showing this variation. The difference compared to others of this vintage is primarily of the clasp. I've seen at least two hallmark configurations on badges having this type of roller. You periodically see H-H naval aviator and flight surgeon wings having the same kind of "heavy" roller.

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Josh,

 

Again, many thanks for the confirmation on the catch. Hopefully...I will recieve my book in the next few days now that I told Amazon to either ship it or refund my money.

 

Concerning scarcity; how does this HH-Imperial example fit in with the deep waves that are marked - "sterling + 120 10K"?

 

Tim

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  • 4 weeks later...

Well, its been almost a month and no new inputs to the thread, so I thought I would add some more PIC's.

 

I was never happy with my initial shots of the H-H Imperial set, so here's two more shots that more closely resemble the badge in hand. It's a real beauty.

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I had previously commented to Josh, that I wonder if Blackinton forgot the "1" in the "10-20 GF" part of the hallmark, as other items I've seen by Blackinton have the "1" there. Anyone know for sure?

 

Here's a couple of dolphin close ups; details are incredible. Enjoy!

 

Tim

post-50776-0-43673200-1383812184.jpg

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Terrific images Tim! I wish I had your camera skills.

 

Submarine Physician-Surgeon insignia sure seem to be a tough hunt for most dolphin badge collectors. I was lucky to find this Meyer hallmarked example a few years ago:

 

Russ

 

 

IMG_4554_crop.jpg

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  • 2 months later...

Terrific images Tim! I wish I had your camera skills.

 

Submarine Physician-Surgeon insignia sure seem to be a tough hunt for most dolphin badge collectors. I was lucky to find this Meyer hallmarked example a few years ago:

 

Russ

 

 

Thank you for the nice comments RW, its a bit belated but with the sub threads getting moved and some threads apparently gone (?) I haven't been keeping up with these. Wish I had something new that I could add here but pickings have been slim these days. Your badges are superb, no worries on your photo skills either, the pictures are clear and sharp.

 

Oh, congrats on your new mod position, a very good choice IMO.

 

Tim

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  • 3 months later...
Steve Brannan

I just read David A Jones' book US Silent Service Dolphins and Combat Insignia. This is a great book and wonderful reference. Super photographs. If David is reading this post, please PM me. I have a questions about the Roll of Honor dolphins.

 

I wanted post pictures of a Medical Officer's dolphins that I have that are not pictured in the book. I am pretty sure they are WWII vintage because the clutches are the short ones- 1/4". Anyone know who might have made these? The silver on the acorn doesn't look very silver.

 

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Blackinton is the likely maker. Remember that the short pin rule was really only established around data from attributed Meyer examples. Not to say a similar change from short to long pins wasn't done by other makers during the same time period. Desirable dolphins regardless of exact manufacture date. What about honor roll dolphins has your interest?

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  • 2 months later...

Tim

I didn't answer this because I think it will open a can of worms, but why not? The forum is a place for education and debate.

 

My thinking around the H-H imperial badges is really about assigning dates of manufacture to them and their sterling counterparts, and not really relative scarcity. I've been watching them at auction for years thinking about your original question. They both pop up often enough that I'm not sure which is really scarcer. I've seen "droughts" where it seems like only one type or the other become available, then it eventually reverses.

 

But hey, if you're a type collector how can you not want one of each?

 

Now for the question that kind of goes a little rogue. Is the typical collector lore around H-H Imperial really true? Has the company merger/ buyout that led to the double hallmark really been documented somewhere? I know that people usually cite the same wing reference as the source of the H-H/ Imperial double mark explanation, but I remain skeptical. Here's why.

 

H-H had, like Meyer, several proprietary "brands" within their product lineup. H-H Viking for example, but also others that I've now forgotten as well. I'm fairly convinced that H-H Imperial really just denotes H-H's insignia line that doesn't contain precious metal as a base. Ancillary evidence from this: I have a documented sub grouping from WWI to WWII (retired 1946) that contains two H-H Imperial products. One is a set of dolphins, probably to replace the officer's other earlier set- a salty pair of Meyer Metal insignia that I have good reason to believe date from the late 20's. The other is a blackened overseas officer's device for the working grey uniform. If the H-H Imperial insignia were really made for only about a year during a company merger early in the war, what is a later war insignia doing with the same markings? The cap device has no indication of precious metal content, and from it's economy construction I'm pretty sure it doesn't. I can't be positive of the purchase date, but believe it dates from 1944, when the officer purchased his dated working grey jacket.

 

I think we tend, as collectors, to think in terms of absolutes. "Wings and insignia were made from sterling during the War years due to copper shortages." Yes, there is truth to that, without a doubt. But remember that we kept minting copper pennies for all of the war years except for 1943, so it couldn't have been impossible to get copper to work with. Sterling was cheaper back then, but it's not like it didn't have value. The Mint made sterling planchets for a number of Navy medals, but due to cost, Army decoration contractors simply did not despite the fact that they were producing both types during the same time frame (Think purple hearts and silver stars, for example).

 

I honestly believe both HH sterling and HH imperial were sold/ issued concomitantly during the war years, and possibly into Korea. I saw a set from a guy who joined up in '48 and he had a set but with the standard jewelry-type roller, and not the 4 nub. And that opens up another question; when did deep wave insignia fall out of favor or perhaps regulation? You see photos of officers into the 60's wearing them, but at some point after you just stop seeing them. And in defining the end, how can you not ask about when they actually started selling that style to begin with? It had to be right around the beginning of the war, but pre war or early war? I'd love to find some old H-H catalogs and get some of these questions answered.

 

Josh

 

 

Concerning scarcity; how does this HH-Imperial example fit in with the deep waves that are marked - "sterling + 120 10K"?

 

Tim

 

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