gilhoolie Posted February 15, 2016 Share #201 Posted February 15, 2016 The badge belonged to a family member who qualified for it during service with the Asiatic Fleet in the late 1920s, much of it in China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted February 16, 2016 Share #202 Posted February 16, 2016 Well truth is, without direct specific proof of manufacturer here, we may never know exactly when, where, or who actually manufactured the badge. Just because someone served in the Asian theatre doesn’t mean the badge was made there. Even Jones lists the example in his book as “unknown” to manufacturer and I imagine he did exhaustive research for his book, certainly more than I have on this matter.Considering the main submarine training facility at the time was in Groton, Connecticut, it seems very likely that insignia was procured through official outlets that were available to those at the time. Though early on, it appears strict adherence to uniform regulations were much looser and variations in insignia more pronounced, most still had to follow main design features called out in the specifications and by the 1930’s were specifically told to procure insignia from authorized government sources. That rule did not apply only to submarine insignia but all military uniform insignia.If you have served in uniform then you know there are outlets to procure uniforms and insignia from authorized sources. Today we have uniform shops on base, procurement though supply channels and on most afloat commands ships stores that, depending on size, can carry a wide array of items. Back then venues like Naval Clothing Factory, Quartermaster Departments, etc. provided the source for much of this. Additionally, commands sometimes stock token amounts of item for issue on board and what’s to say this set of dolphins wasn’t passed down from someone else? There are just too many possibilities to say for sure without more specific information regarding this particular pattern of insignia.Without getting too far off the topic of WW2 Submarine insignia here…The reason I suspect this pattern of badge, with the tube or trombone style of clasp, originating from England is because this style of clasp was patented by Charles Rowley of Birmingham, England in 1850. It was a very popular style of clasp used in jewelry throughout Europe from the late 1800’s well through WW2 and into the 1950’s when the safety type of clasp eventually replaced it.Considering many private jewelers were awarded contracts to produce military medals and insignia starting around the WW1 era and many of those jewelers were on the east coast, I think it’s quite plausible that their base material was often procured from European sources, certainly early on. We see this also applied to ribbon stock used for medals as well, often procured from French sources.In the early 1900’s, companies like Irons & Russell and Coro (Cohn and Rosenberger) were often associated with cosmetic jewelry, sweetheart emblems, and minor militaria-related badges but, they also produced military insignia under contract. Coro was a company that did use the trombone style of clasp on some of their items during this period. Not saying that Coro produced this badge shown here but, it goes to show U.S. jewelers were using the type of clasp to some extent during this era.I’ll add a snippet pic to show some basic information on the history of the clasp from this site: http://fancy4glass.ca/information-gallery-main-pages/identifying-and-dating-an-antique-or-vintage-jewelry-clasp-or-hinge.htm Again, we call all speculate the source but without more positive proof showing a specific source, we may never know for sure. Nice example though! Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilhoolie Posted February 16, 2016 Share #203 Posted February 16, 2016 I got the badge as kid and unfortunately never thought to ask where he got it. Since completing "the course of instruction in submarines" at Groton did not qualify an officer to wear the badge, he did not get it at Groton, either at graduation, nor later on as he never returned there.The badge was awarded to him after "satisfactory performance" in submarines while serving in one S boat then commanding another, both in the Far East. He then transferred to Panama where he commanded another S boat. I do know this is the only badge he wore and I think it likely he got it when he qualified for it, in the Far East. Unfortunately, this doesn't provide any clue as to where it was made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ram957 Posted March 24, 2016 Share #204 Posted March 24, 2016 I primarily collect USAAF wings and love to find engraved examples so when I saw this Submarine Warfare insignia I had to have it. Since I know nothing about these can anyone help on dating these. I did a little research on the engraved name and believe he was a 1919 Graduate of the Naval Academy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh B. Posted March 24, 2016 Author Share #205 Posted March 24, 2016 Thanks for sharing this wonderful BB&B attributed example. Early to mid- 20's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted March 24, 2016 Share #206 Posted March 24, 2016 Agree, beautiful example and nice pick up on your part, congrats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBG Posted March 30, 2016 Share #207 Posted March 30, 2016 Engraved pieces are the best. You got a good deal on this, thanks for posting it. Here's Captain Reynolds grave site: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=49357820&PIpi=47604859 I also found a Lieutenant John L. Reynolds who is listed as serving on the U.S.S. R-3 in 1924. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walk2892 Posted July 21, 2016 Share #208 Posted July 21, 2016 Is there a post WWII submarine dolphins topic? I could not find one but if would be nice to have discussions that include enlisted dolphins. There were a ton of manufactures for them also. (Balfour, Gemsco, Meyers, Vanguard) to name a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walk2892 Posted August 3, 2016 Share #209 Posted August 3, 2016 I started a post submarine insignia topic, be nice to see what kind of things are out there. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/271411-submarine-dolphins-and-variations-post-wwii/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST Posted November 20, 2016 Share #210 Posted November 20, 2016 I hope you don't mind a cloth version added here. This is on an ID'd custom tailored uniform worn by a ship's cook 2nd Class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST Posted November 22, 2016 Share #211 Posted November 22, 2016 I hope you don't mind a cloth version added here. This is on an ID'd custom tailored uniform worn by a ship's cook 2nd Class. lontz dolphin web.jpg By the way, is this an officer's version? How common are bullion dolphins on WWII enlisted uniforms? And any thoughts on where these were made? As you may have guessed, I know very little about submariner's insignia but have really enjoyed reading about them in this thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walk2892 Posted November 22, 2016 Share #212 Posted November 22, 2016 Enlisted used embroider on their sleeve until 1947 then it moved to above the breast pocket until 1950 which they used metal insignia. The officers used metal since 1928. I am not sure when the officers would have used cloth though. Maybe someone else has some more information regarding that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted November 22, 2016 Share #213 Posted November 22, 2016 Enlisted used embroider on their sleeve until 1947 then it moved to above the breast pocket until 1950 which they used metal insignia. The officers used metal since 1928. I am not sure when the officers would have used cloth though. Maybe someone else has some more information regarding that. Chris, I believe 1951, based on the comments here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/213094-my-small-cloth-wwii-submarine-badge-collection/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted November 22, 2016 Share #214 Posted November 22, 2016 double post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST Posted November 23, 2016 Share #215 Posted November 23, 2016 Thanks for the replies. The bullion badge that I showed is on an enlisted jumper from a submariner who served as a ship's cook during WWII. It is worn on his right sleeve between the elbow and the cuff. I was just wondering how unusual it was for an enlisted submariner to wear a bullion badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh B. Posted November 23, 2016 Author Share #216 Posted November 23, 2016 Not that unusual. Generally this silver bullion cuff dolphin was intended to match the bullion ratings of CPO uniforms. Other non CPO enlisted did buy them from time to time. I have two uniforms with the same bullion dolphin. One on a late to post war 6 button Chief with bullion crow taylored in New London, the other a non chief TM 2nd or 3rd class, going from memory. The TM uniform was direct from the family. Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh B. Posted November 23, 2016 Author Share #217 Posted November 23, 2016 Qualified officers and enlisted submariners began using the metal and cloth dolphins, respectively, in 1924. Enlisted used embroider on their sleeve until 1947 then it moved to above the breast pocket until 1950 which they used metal insignia. The officers used metal since 1928. I am not sure when the officers would have used cloth though. Maybe someone else has some more information regarding that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST Posted November 23, 2016 Share #218 Posted November 23, 2016 Not that unusual. Generally this silver bullion cuff dolphin was intended to match the bullion ratings of CPO uniforms. Other non CPO enlisted did buy them from time to time. I have two uniforms with the same bullion dolphin. One on a late to post war 6 button Chief with bullion crow taylored in New London, the other a non chief TM 2nd or 3rd class, going from memory. The TM uniform was direct from the family. Josh Thanks Josh B.! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted November 23, 2016 Share #219 Posted November 23, 2016 I finally took some decent pictures of the deep wave dolphins I picked up (thanks for the advice, Tim!) so I figured I'd put them in the thread here for reference. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ram957 Posted December 1, 2016 Share #220 Posted December 1, 2016 Just a follow up,to my posting of John Leeper Reynolds Insignia...I requested his Servive record from the National Archives and I can't believe the amount of info I received !!! It's going to take quite a while to sort through it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MastersMate Posted April 27, 2017 Share #221 Posted April 27, 2017 In the for what it's worth department. Ran across this photo in a 1919 issue of "OUR NAVY" magazine. Do you suppose it could have any influence on the design of the submariner insignia ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh B. Posted April 27, 2017 Author Share #222 Posted April 27, 2017 Its the right perspective on the same sub class the insignia was modeled on. Good eye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erichjr Posted December 21, 2017 Share #223 Posted December 21, 2017 Here is a bronze Gemsco i picked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erichjr Posted December 21, 2017 Share #224 Posted December 21, 2017 maybe early ww2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh B. Posted December 21, 2017 Author Share #225 Posted December 21, 2017 Erich, Gemsco dolphins are a tough nut to crack. Their early insignia were unmarked, precious metal content hallmarks withstanding. From personal observation, I believe that was the case until around the end of WWII, especially for their "type I" dolphins like yours. I'm of the opinion that their "deepwave" dolphins (type II to me) are fairly late war to early post war. Those of course bore the Gemsco name. Even more confusingly, their pierced die type I's (type III to me) may have also come out near the end of the war, and these are usually hallmarked. So I'd say anywhere from mid-late WWII or shortly thereafter. The combination of bronze base metal, un-pierced die but having the Gemsco name is an atypical set of attributes for the manufacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now