Vietnam war era Phoenix Program patch

[Bookie]

Could this be the "original" used to manufacture the remake? This is a high quality fully embroidered patch and it's art work is amazingly similar to that which your remake displays. Patches like this one have not been made in a long, long time and very well could be an original. Most collecting gets side tracked by assuming that Viet made pieces are the original when in many cases they are not. And sometimes the lightly made pieces were replaced with better quality pieces that had been "mail ordered" from some place else. The scan doesn't show the colors quite right, especially the letters. They are much closer to the brown shown on the remake.

 

IH

I may be putting my foot into my mouth, but I don't believe that it's an original. In my personal experience of buying them from the on post "gook shop" and sewing them onto my flight shirt, I've never seen a patch that was as heavy-duty or the lettering not looking kind of thin. I also know that at least some of the Phoenix patches were made in some shop in Hue as I and a friend took a a jeep down and picked up a dozen to bring back to the company. Those patches were "flimsies", too. Guess I'll be doing a lot of inquiry at this year's reunion. Cheers, Bookie P.S., The patch shown in my post are ordered and made especially for Ray Doan, also of the Phoenix, and he sells them on the Phoenix website.

[itshistory]

I may be putting my foot into my mouth, but I don't believe that it's an original. In my personal experience of buying them from the on post "gook shop" and sewing them onto my flight shirt, I've never seen a patch that was as heavy-duty or the lettering not looking kind of thin. I also know that at least some of the Phoenix patches were made in some shop in Hue as I and a friend took a a jeep down and picked up a dozen to bring back to the company. Those patches were "flimsies", too. Guess I'll be doing a lot of inquiry at this year's reunion. Cheers, Bookie P.S., The patch shown in my post are ordered and made especially for Ray Doan, also of the Phoenix, and he sells them on the Phoenix website.

Interesting in the fact that post Vietnam patches don't display the image of the country on that patch. I'm not surprised you don't recognize it, could have been made at a different time while the unit was serving in country.

 

IH

[Saskatoon Light Infantry]

If it was worn, there are probably pictures of it being worn. Do you have any of these photos or have you seen photographic evidence of this patch on a uniform? or , at least an interview with a former member that recalls the patch?

 

 

 

In response to your questions River Patrol:

 

Yes.

 

Yes.

 

Yes.

[Saskatoon Light Infantry]

SOG-SEALS-Force Recon-Phoenix, etc. All special operation type units and all had insignia. Like IH said above, they did not wear them in the field or on OPS, but they wore them in camp or in the compounds.

 

 

 

vintageproductions:

 

PHOENIX was a program; SOG, SEALS and Force Recon were military units. It's incorrect to group all four under the same umbrella.

 

When it comes to PHOENIX, the statement "they did not wear them [meaning insignia] in the field or on OPS, but they wore them in camp or in the compounds" is 100% incorrect. PHOENIX insignia were regularly worn in the field, DIOCCs and PIOCCs.

[Saskatoon Light Infantry]

With all due respect Patchcollector, don't compare OSS operations to PHOENIX operations. PHOENIX insignia was worn openly by Americans. With that said, there was a time and place. If an American was going on a nighttime operation, he obviously wouldn't be wearing such insignia. If he was going on a day time operation, then he might wear such insignia.

The OSS was the precursor to the CIA,which was involved with the project.

 

 

Respectfully Patchcollector, I have no desire to offend you.

 

Your statement "The OSS was the precursor to the CIA, which was involved with the project" is true. However this statement also shows your total lack of knowledge on both OSS operations and PHOENIX operations.

 

In my first posting on this thread, I stated Bill Colby verified the existence of the PHOENIX Advisor School patch. Do you know who Bill Colby (aka William E. Colby) was? If Bill were alive today, he would be the first person to tell you not to compare OSS operations to PHOENIX operations.

[River Patrol]

In response to your questions River Patrol:

 

Yes.

 

Yes.

 

Yes.

 

Great!

 

Would you care to share these photographs here for all to see?

 

Please understand that my questions are never doubtful but are meant to draw people into action or to help refine a theory.

[90thDivHistory]

What an interesting read this was so far. I am in the camp that you have to have provenance for something that is supposed to be so rare confirmed. As a historian I always work with in the triangle format of confirmation regarding events, and I guess you could use the same for patches.

 

Does the element in question have support from eyewitness testimony?

 

Is there photographic evidence of the event or item?

 

Is there documentation of the event or item from official primary source documents? These documents must be able to be found in an original form not just photocopies or in someone's book. Just because someone wrote something does not make it true. ( ie. the internet) So you need to be able to trace a piece of text back to its original.

 

You must have at least 3 elements out of the 3 possible ways listed above.

They can be mixed and matched but you have to have at least 3, more is all the better.

( ex. 3 guys all stated that they saw the same thing, or 2 guys did and there was a photo, or there are two official reports and a photo, or two photos and an eyewitness)

You get the idea. Now this is not a full proof authentication system but it has served me well for 14 years of historical research.

 

In my opinion I would need much more proof that these Phoenix patches were worn before I would say it is real or rare, because rare can only be so if it is real.

I think someone wearing a patch in a photo would go along way to helping prove these were worn. But a unit member saying "no" is pretty strong to overcome for me personally.

 

Thanks for sharing the patch it is a cool design, and seems to be well made.

 

Respectfully,

Tyler Alberts

[all-bull]

What an interesting read this was so far. I am in the camp that you have to have provenance for something that is supposed to be so rare confirmed. As a historian I always work with in the triangle format of confirmation regarding events, and I guess you could use the same for patches.

 

Does the element in question have support from eyewitness testimony?

 

Is there photographic evidence of the event or item?

 

Is there documentation of the event or item from official primary source documents? These documents must be able to be found in an original form not just photocopies or in someone's book. Just because someone wrote something does not make it true. ( ie. the internet) So you need to be able to trace a piece of text back to its original.

 

You must have at least 3 elements out of the 3 possible ways listed above.

They can be mixed and matched but you have to have at least 3, more is all the better.

( ex. 3 guys all stated that they saw the same thing, or 2 guys did and there was a photo, or there are two official reports and a photo, or two photos and an eyewitness)

You get the idea. Now this is not a full proof authentication system but it has served me well for 14 years of historical research.

 

In my opinion I would need much more proof that these Phoenix patches were worn before I would say it is real or rare, because rare can only be so if it is real.

I think someone wearing a patch in a photo would go along way to helping prove these were worn. But a unit member saying "no" is pretty strong to overcome for me personally.

 

Thanks for sharing the patch it is a cool design, and seems to be well made.

 

Respectfully,

Tyler Alberts

 

Hello there,

I have enjoyed your Kraut Killer thread. If you read this all the way through, you will see that one member who was in the unit says they were not worn. And another member says they were. I sincerely hope he provides us with evidence, which he seems to have. We also have another member who says he has the actual certificate but does not want to post it because of fakers. I don't blame him. And to the best of my knowledge, the photocopies pictured in Gary Murtha's book are of things that do exist and are originals (not fantasy pieces). I have several of the items pictured from his book that came straight from him, and have pictured other items that he had in his book that were not exclusively from him. I am hoping Saskatoon can help us with photographic proof as we have already proved in this thread that PRU items were worn, when, from what I gathered, it was assumed that they were not. Unfortunately, for all of us Vietnam collectors, I highly doubt that there is a picture of every patch that was worn in Vietnam during the war. I know I have found out the IDs of several patches by writing veterans on a hunch and asking them about a certain patch. It sure is a great feeling when they can say "yeah I wore that on the left pocket on my jungle jacket when I was at Bien Hoa 69-70", even though there are no photos known to exist. Hope these patches get settled!!

Hunter

[90thDivHistory]

Hello there,

I have enjoyed your Kraut Killer thread. If you read this all the way through, you will see that one member who was in the unit says they were not worn. And another member says they were. I sincerely hope he provides us with evidence, which he seems to have. We also have another member who says he has the actual certificate but does not want to post it because of fakers. I don't blame him. And to the best of my knowledge, the photocopies pictured in Gary Murtha's book are of things that do exist and are originals (not fantasy pieces). I have several of the items pictured from his book that came straight from him, and have pictured other items that he had in his book that were not exclusively from him. I am hoping Saskatoon can help us with photographic proof as we have already proved in this thread that PRU items were worn, when, from what I gathered, it was assumed that they were not. Unfortunately, for all of us Vietnam collectors, I highly doubt that there is a picture of every patch that was worn in Vietnam during the war. I know I have found out the IDs of several patches by writing veterans on a hunch and asking them about a certain patch. It sure is a great feeling when they can say "yeah I wore that on the left pocket on my jungle jacket when I was at Bien Hoa 69-70", even though there are no photos known to exist. Hope these patches get settled!!

Hunter

Thanks for the comment about the KK patch I posted.

I did read the post all the way through, and just to clarify these are just the standards that I set for myself and as we all know Vietnam patches are a breed all their own. I realize the conflict between the two members one saying yes and one saying no hopefully other members of the unit can be located to confirm or deny the wearing of the patch. But then again they did not all work together everyday like it was a factory so each independent unit probably had their own SOP. As for the documentation I only said that photocopies must be able to be traced back to originals that exist somewhere. It is amazing what a person with good knowledge of Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator can do as I have done it myself as a test. As long as the originals can be produced by someone, be it a private collector or and archival holding somewhere that confirms the photocopy paperwork it has met the mark for me. In regards to photos, of course not every action or patch was photographed and having photographic evidence is not mandatory but it is definitely the #1 piece of evidence in my book. Eyewitness testimony is good but memories fail for both the good and bad outcomes, and sometimes people just want to put themselves into history. I have witnessed WWII veterans swear that they came ashore on D-Day with the 90th, even though on 2 Bns actually did, and their unit did not land until D+2, or morning reports show they did not come to the 90th until weeks after the landings. Now mind you this is maybe 10 out of the 23,000 that passed through the Division but it does happen. I have never read Murtha's book, but did he talk about these patches? So in the end it is left up the each individual to determine the legitimacy of what they wish to purchase.

I can say that if people want something to be true they can sometimes convince themselves of anything, wether it is about a girl they want to date, did Franco Harris really make a legal catch in the "immaculate reception", or if the patch they just bought was worn by some special unit. When I see photographs, or more testimonies from Vets of this unit I will feel that the benchmarks have been met for me, because for each of us ours is only an opinion. If someone shows up tomorrow with a Kraut Killer patch I will be very happy for them and assist in every way I can to prove its legitimacy if it can be traced back to something that is confirmable. If not my intellect just says "no", regardless of how bad I want to know of another one. They can say all they want that it is legit, but with out proof, it will just be another fake for me.

When I first got the Kraut Killer patch lots of people in the Dallas Fort Worth area thought I was making it up, but with the photos, the paperwork, unit histories, and over 50 veterans talking about the patch they wish they still had (and some of them sending me pictures of theirs) it became undeniable. I hope that this Phoenix patch issue is resolved through research and evidence.

Respectfully,

Tyler Alberts

[noexpert]

Mr. Alberts is wise in his argument in that he keeps his eye upon the donut and upon the hole, as the old saying goes. He makes the argument that he has a single patch that he set out to prove was real and was able to do so.

 

This thread began with the image of a single patch. The submitter included the phrase "...During the war,you would'nt want people wearing this showing up at your door,as you would probably never be seen again..." which certainly implies that the particular type of patch, though not necessarily the particular patch, was WORN IN THE FIELD BY PHOENIX HIT SQUADS. Since this is a Forum of collector's of American military insignia, it followed that there was further implication that it was worn in the field by Americans, either participating in or advising those performing the assassinations.

 

I think this is where the questioning of the PARTICULAR patch shown began. And the questioning of Americans wearing IT or one like it (as in "representing assassination squads.") Even by some members' questions about the depth of knowledge of the program were directed at these clandestine murders / assassintions, not the program in general which - like many others - also had a more or less public face.

 

While the thread has been interesting, and some circumstantial evidence has been presented that some type of insignia was at least possessed by American advisors to the program, the fact is that the argument has wandered far from the original patch. It does seem to have been established that no Americans were involved in the assassination squads, so that part of the argument can probably be ruled out.

 

Several references have been made to printed materials. It seems that almost all of those show the insignia tabbed, which this patch clearly is not. I would also note, as someone who spent a little time as an artist in the Army, that when you tell a GI to make something look like a patch or insignia you're going to get something that will give collector's thrills and whoever controls Army heraldry heart attacks.

 

I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't collect VN stuff. I feel kind of bad for people who do because there will never be a lodestone for them to touch and be sure something is good. Releying on some guy who may have worn a pocket patch 45 years ago for 4 or 5 months, and who moved from FSB Blank to FSB Other Blank to Who Wat and back and switched laundries each time, is a risky proposition at best. I have some pretty "clear" memories that the Way Back Machine might refute.

 

The fact is that we've forgotten the orignial patch. So I would go back to Mr Alberts' point. Has anything so far shown that this PARTICULAR patch is:

 

A: Made for wear by American Military

 

B: Actually what it purports to be - worn in the FIELD "During the war,you would'nt want people

wearing this showing up at your door,as you would probably never be seen again."

[M60 Driver]

This is certainly an entertaining thread. For me, one interesting insight is that it appears that the secrecy and the purported clandestine nature of the Phoenix program were aimed at the domestic US market and US forces, and not so much towards Vietnam itself where there was, it seems, a higher degree of awareness of the program judging from all the Vietnamese Phoenix documents.

[Bookie]

If I may shed a tiny bit of light on possibilites mentioned previously by you gentlemen. I, having flown actual Phoenix teams (and not meaning C/158 AVN BN of whom I was with) & SOG/SF teams in the NW corner of I Corps and very often "across the fence", can testify that we had nothing on us that said we were American during these missions and were told when going into North Viet Nam, if we went down, we would be listed missing in action, presumed dead. During the time period that I flew these teams, they did not wear wear insignia on these missions, but did wear insignia back at base camp. (I know there were SOG patches at the time, but must confess that the only SOG insignia I saw up North were painted on signs.) Here are 4 photos in 2 postings to confirm what I am attempting to say.

The first photo is of a team just returned and opening their cold beers. No insignia on my friend John or his men at Khe Sanh.

The second photo is of SFC McGovern and a couple of his guys during repelling training at LZ Sally one month later. Insignia worn.

The 3rd pic is the SOG sign near his hootch. No insignia worn.

[Bookie]

Last shot, The guys a day after returning from a hot extraction 1 week after repelling training. 4 team members left standing and no insignia. Man in center was jeep driver for their company. Yes, I know there are flashes on their berets, but the berets weren't worn when jumping the fence by these guys.

 

 

Regardless whether the patch that started this thread is period or not, it is simply beautiful and would put it with my stuff any day,you lucky dog! Cheers, Bookie

[jgawne]

Now see all the stuff you learn when you start researching something?

 

I am really amazed by the Phoenix wanted poster. This photos makes me change my mind about the security level of the name. Still, don;t think any Americans would want to be known as being part of it.

[mhk]

These are SOG personnel most likely from FOB1 Phu Bai

[paul_bish]

we have an interview from John on our site. He was at Khe Sanh during the siege.

http://www.modernforces.com/veterans_John_McGovern_1.htm

 

and lots of photos here

http://www.modernforces.com/veterans_John_McGovern.htm

[mhk]

we have an interview from John on our site. He was at Khe Sanh during the siege.

http://www.modernforces.com/veterans_John_McGovern_1.htm

 

and lots of photos here

http://www.modernforces.com/veterans_John_McGovern.htm

Yes i know and i have read those day 1 but i was pointing out that most of pictures are sog personnel not phoenix program.

[34BDQ]

With regards to this thread I would like to offer the comments of a 2 former individuals who worked with the PRU as company men. I have known one individual for many years and can attest to his knowledge. His comments are in bold type. For some reason the bold type did not appear. Indentation paragrapghs are replies to members.

 

I know personally two individuals who served multiple tours in Vietnam first as advisors to the airborne and rangers and then as military advisors with the PRU. One, pictured on post 64 shows him wearing the patch for a PRU unit, from if my memory serves me correctly Chau Duc Province.

 

I believe that insignia both cloth and metal were made and worn, more so in the latter part of the war.

 

Dennis.

 

I read this comment: from J. Andrews (wonder if John Andrews)

 

I was in the Phoenix program (1970-1971, I ctz) and NEVER -- say again, NEVER -- saw any emblem, insignia, patch, badge, etc. etc. worn. Great pains were taken to stay covert.

 

True, to an extent. But by this time there had been major articles in US, Time, Penthouse, Esquire, etc.

 

I was an MI officer but was TOLD to wear "Infantry or anything else, except WAC, IG or Chaplain" BOS insignia. We were not even to wear a Natl Police black beret or their duckhunter camo, or black-dyed fatigues.

 

This time frame was when the US military had taken over more from Agency. There was no reason to wear any kind of insignia other than their normal, makes no sense. Uniforms. Guess by then the PRU were being brought under Nat’l Police umbrella. There were reasons this started to happen in later 60s, to give legitimacy, etc. (ah, the lawyers arrive)

 

Even the offices were checked for plaques or training materials on the walls or coffee mugs and nameplates. Anything related to Phung Hoang or MI branch was strengste verboten.

 

BS. I think I still have one of the little handbooks (few pages) that were passed out, etc. heck, everyone knew where the PRU camp was, etc. How else did VC know where/who to attack – as I know well.

I was amazed to find the same applied at the in-country PHX school at Vung Tau. The staffers wore nothing with The Bird and no NPFF or MI items. Signage was likewise "sterile".

 

This I have to agree with, as never saw patches being worn during my tour.

Here is poor quality photo of a 1967 or 68 grad of the PRU school showing the PRU beret badge. SEE PICTURE BELOW.

 

 

Dennis. Never saw a patch, all that came in later when the military got involved. I had a large unit in 67-68, and no insignia worn (generally) other than the metal qualification badge. Meant to be awarded to grads of the PRU school at "Vung Tau, but came to be worn by most PRU, on beret, chest, etc. a couple local units started to adopt a patch in 68 and I recall a few then. But it was after I left that the other patches began to appear. Never saw this one for sure, wonder who/why made. Ditto the crests.

 

The PRUs were known of course, controversial and a lot of hype out there. Reading a few of the comments in the forum I can see it reflected.

 

Patches. It is crazy now, but I wanted my unit to have a patch but we were remote I Corps and did not want to spend $$, so had a simple thing silk screened in town. Never saw anyone wear it, we just gave to troops. However, we did have a great flag made when we had a visit from President Ky, and Gen Loan, to receive an national award. I have photos of the flag, but at an angle, never thought of history.

 

I have a friend who was involved in IV Corps, and in fact moved up to the Region office as the PRU officer (detailed from SF). He has some of the later patches, etc., will ask him.

 

Subject: Fwd: FW: Phoenix patch

 

Reply from person mentioned above.

 

Certainly beautiful and carefully embroidered pocket patches, similar to others I have seen, but these appear to be made with additional care. They are the basic Phung Hoang design, and depending when and where you were, and your involvement or non-involvement with the program obviously influenced your exposure to the insignia. I have seen much cruder renditions, worn by personnel where the Phoenix Program participants were known members of PIOCCs. In some areas, especially at the DIOCC level which may enjoy less security, participating members of the Phoenix Program were not so widely known.

 

A similar bird was on the (US made but US- and RVN-signed) certificate of the 'ANCIENT AND ORIENTAL ORDER OF THE PHOENICIANS' which I personally cannot connect with Phoenix other that it is a VIET NAM CONG HOA heading!! It has various graded of 'BIRDWATCHER' and presented for service with the Phoenix Program. There is a photo of this certificate in Doug Valentine's book The Phoenix Program.

 

I note a lot of mystique still surrounds the program

 

The patch you sent seems authentic to me.

 

From 8240 comments

 

Some time ago, the same kind of controversy went up concerning the "sniper" patches from the VN era. Many people thought that no one would be suicidal enough to wear such insignias in the field (basic commonsense I would say).

 

But they were worn ,and photo evidence was posted on this forum.

 

Yes, the "Phoenix" patches shown here are not the kind of crap that fakers currently crank out nowadays: one point for the genuine theory.

But their very existence is questionable for a covert ops: one point for the fake theory.

But many Special Forces ops were covert...and genuine patches do exist.

 

This was not a SF operation. And when military took over more, in 70-71, it became more with MI advisors.

 

In early days. Advisors, detailed to Agency, were from USMC 1st Corps. 2nd and 3rd Corps, USSF and 4th corps more SEAL. IV later shifted to SF, as SF had more personnel available.

 

Someone made comment about those involved not knowing what went on. Depends on era and location. In some provinces, some of the officers just turned over all control to locals, sometimes the Province Chief; sometimes even down to District. But even then, they usually/usually kept watch as we were footing the bill.

 

Others.., such as in my case, kept a very time control. The USA was paying the bill and we were going to control. That said. Every mission that went out, we reported to MACV Hqs (AFTER OPN left, not before although they wanted), and Province had people working in same office.

 

Assassination. Too, too much is made of this mission. There was generally more of an desire to capture and interrogate for information, prisoners were turned over to Province Prison unless higher value. Other missions were to capture weapons, food, equipment. Or surveillance. Or.. for awhile I provided guides to the 101st, some received BS, several ACM and one a PH (might have been more awards)

 

Here are some books on the subject, some good, some not so good, i.e. anti-war, Agency, etc

 

ANDRADE, Dale. Ashes to Ashes; The Phoenix Program and the Viet Nam War. Lexington Books, Lexington, MA 1990 ISBN 066920014X

COOK, John L. The Advisor: The Phoenix Program in Vietnam. Schiffer Publishers, Ltd. Atglen, PA 1997 ISBN 0764301373

GENEROUS, Kevin, Vietnam, The Secret War, Gallery Books, New York 1985 ISBN 083179173X

HERRINGTON, Stuart. Stalking the Vietcong: Inside Operation Phoenix: A Personal Account. Presidio Press, Novato, CA 1997 ISBN 0891416412

MOYAR, Mark. Phoenix and the Birds of Prey: The CIA’s Secret Campaign to Destroy the Viet Cong. U.S. Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, MD 1997 ISBN 1557505934

[River Patrol]

In response to your questions River Patrol:

 

Yes.

 

Yes.

 

Yes.

 

Great, would you care to share your photos Saskatoon?? (If no, please answer in the negative so I know you've read this).

 

I have my doubts this patch was ever worn, but I'd like to see your photographic evidence to prove otherwise.

 

Steve

[J_Andrews]

The lack of any Phoenix emblems (such as plaques or desk nameplates) in and around OFFICES was due to avoiding undue attention from, among others, the MEDIA. My period of service was AFTER the Stateside press and Congress began denouncing the program.

 

Nobody in Phoenix wanted press attention. We were ordered to never admit connection with PHX or PRU, ESPECIALLY not to US State Dept people and press. There were State wienies who took personal interest in "exposing Phoenix", with the purpose of currying favor with the anti-Phoenix lobby back in DC. We worked extensively with Psyops and RDC, and even Civil Affairs (all linked to CORDS, as was PHX), but were warned to "shut up" around NON-MILITARY people working in those fields.

 

And my involvement was AFTER CIA backed off from the whole program. In 1970-71, CIA still paid and inspected the PRU teams, and I would see the Agency I CTZ coordinator once a month when he showed up for payday. Payday -- and a few insertion requirements for US helis -- was when I saw PRU people wearing any insignia at all, mostly the winged scimitar.

[Spike]

Thought this might add a bit of color as the PRU were basically the action arm(wing?) of Phoenix.....

 

 

PRU intel reports from Kien Giang, over an inch thick of paper, some pages have pics of the subject. Boring reading but still a cool bit of history. Came from a SEAL that was a PRU advisor.

 

 

This is a copy, I'm hoping against hope that the original is still around with a bunch of other paperwork that I may have access to.

 

[Spike]

Interesting notes on some of the pages......

 

 

 

 

Note that Phoenix is one of the agencies on the distribution list.

[nguoi tien su]

 

A neat example of a plaque. Unfortunately not mine...

[vintageproductions]

NTS-Great image. The plaque I had years ago that was still boxed, was similar.

Bob

[90thDivHistory]

Great, would you care to share your photos Saskatoon?? (If no, please answer in the negative so I know you've read this).

 

I have my doubts this patch was ever worn, but I'd like to see your photographic evidence to prove otherwise.

 

Steve

Steve,

I am with you on this one, I keep checking this post every time it pops back up top to see the photos that Saskatoon says he has of the patch being worn, but nothing ever shows up. I would hope that if someone had real pics of the patch being worn it would be shown quite quickly and end the debate. Everything else about Phoenix has been discussed here and the topic of SOG wearing insignia has even popped up, which is always great and welcome by the way, but the original topic of wether this Phoenix patch was ever worn in Vietnam has still yet to be proved in my eyes.

 

Saskatoon,

If you do have these photos please post them with a watermark or whatever you need, but I think many of us here would love to see these pics that you say you have and end the debate.

 

Bookie,

Your photos are great, thanks for confirming what I was told by Project Delta guys that operated in Cambodia during Operation Ares out of Dong Xoai. They never wore any insignia when crossing the fence, and would be declared MIA and presumed dead if captured or complications arose in their extraction.

 

Thanks, to all who have contributed to this topic it has really been a great read and I have learned quite a few things I did not know.

Best of luck to us all in finding those rare pieces that still exist, even if we do not know of them now.

Respectfully,

Tyler Alberts