Question About Purple Hearts

[Collector5516]

I know official government engravings were done on WWI Purple Hearts for all recipients (not just KIA). What I would like to know is how long did this practice continue. For example... if a WWI veteran applied for a Purple Heart in 1944 would his name be engraved on the reverse? Were they only doing official engravings for KIA at that point, including retroactive applications? Thanks!

[BigJohn#3RD]

FYI no KIA from WWI received the Purple Hearts, that tradition (authorization) did not come about until WWII. Another little know fact about Purple Hearts is that is was initially a Army only award, though Marines and Sailors attached to AEF Units such as the 2nd Division were eligible for the awarding of the Purple Heart for each Wound Chevron, or the very short lived Army Wound Ribbon, authorized to wear on their uniforms. The awarding of the Purple Heart by Department of the Navy took place on December 3, 1942: EXECUTIVE ORDER 9277 AWARD OF THE PURPLE HEART TO PERSONS SERVING WITH THE NAVY, MARINE CORPS OR COAST GUARD OF THE UNITED STATES

 

.

To answer your question about WWI WIA engraved medals issued in WWII, yes they were engraved when the medal was requested.

 

Here are some link to help you find more information on the Purple Heart, Though none of them are 100% without error.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_heart

 

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Purple_Heart

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Wound_Ribbon

 

http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tp...m/8370032922001

 

Regards,

John

[Garandomatic]

My 37th Division WIA PH is engraved nicely, and near as I can pinpoint it, it was issued around the beginning of WWII. It's numbered in the 9000s, not the very first variant, but the 2nd I think... Fella woulda been eligible for an oakleaf cluster if he was a war later. Hit on 11/4, almost killed on 11/10. Spent Armistice Day getting patched up, I reckon.

[tom2001]

I know official government engravings were done on WWI Purple Hearts for all recipients (not just KIA). What I would like to know is how long did this practice continue. For example... if a WWI veteran applied for a Purple Heart in 1944 would his name be engraved on the reverse? Were they only doing official engravings for KIA at that point, including retroactive applications? Thanks!

 

Yes, WWI vets who applied for the medal received engraved medals during WWII and beyond. There were quite a few WWI PH's issued during WWII, and everyone I have seen were officially engraved.

 

WWI PH's were issued by application from the vet, so no WWI KIA PH's were issued.

 

I have a 1961 issued WWI PH in my collection, which is also officially engraved

[Adam R]

I used to own a WWI PH issued in 1972 and a Philippine Insurrection (WIA 1899) PH issued in 1945. Both were officially named.

[Collector5516]

Thank you all for this information. You've certainly answered my question and then some. Am I correct in assuming that a Purple Heart issued during WW2 to a WWI vet is worth less than one issued in the 30's? I have a shot at buying a PH in black coffin case (I think it was produced between 43-45) with a WWI soldier's named engraved on reverse. What do you think the value is?

[Dave]

Am I correct in assuming that a Purple Heart issued during WW2 to a WWI vet is worth less than one issued in the 30's? I have a shot at buying a PH in black coffin case (I think it was produced between 43-45) with a WWI soldier's named engraved on reverse. What do you think the value is?

 

That's a pretty loaded question. It's like saying: "I've been offered an airborne officer's uniform from WW2, what's it worth?"

 

Okay, so not nearly as many variables when it comes to PHs issued for WW1, but there are a good number...is it researched? What unit was he from? Army? Navy? Air Service? Was he an officer? Enlisted? Lots of questions...

 

In perspective, WW1 PHs issued in the 30s normally run between $250 and $350 (see the sold listings on this forum) so one issued later won't be TOO far off that...maybe $50-$100 off that, tops.

 

But again, so many variables to make a hard figure of "value" without seeing it and knowing who the recipient was.

 

Dave

[BigJohn#3RD]

I concur with Dave; is there a picture of the Veteran who received it (preferably in uniform), is the engraving correct for the period, Are other medals included? Is the ribbon present and the proper broach on the back? Is his discharge papers included or his WWI Wound Accolade included; a Document that is titled "Columbia Gives To Her Son The Accolade Of the New Chivalry Of Humanity" which pictures a Women with a Sword Knighting a Doughboy on Bended Knee with a Flag, Shield and soldier at present arms in the background? Most importantly will you be comfortable with the price you pay for the medal? :think: All this goes in determining the price you pay for it. Not trying to overwhelm you but many folks lay out money for something and are not happy with their decision later on, especially in the current economy. Just some things to think about before laying down your hard earned cash.

Look forward to seeing it if you get it.

Regards

John

[tom2001]

Thank you all for this information. You've certainly answered my question and then some. Am I correct in assuming that a Purple Heart issued during WW2 to a WWI vet is worth less than one issued in the 30's? I have a shot at buying a PH in black coffin case (I think it was produced between 43-45) with a WWI soldier's named engraved on reverse. What do you think the value is?

 

I concur with Dave and Big John on the "what's it worth" part of your question, but in general, all things being equal, it seems that 1940's issued PH's for WWI sell for somewhat less than 1930's issued medals.

[Collector5516]

Dave and John,

 

You're right in that my question was very general and the answer could be 100-1000. I guess I was just trying to get a rough idea as to how much less a WW2 era PH to a WWI veteran would be worth compared to the same exact medal but from the early 30's. There is a photo and a dog tag along with the medal. Unfortunately, no wound certificate.

 

If I am able to purchase the medal I will definitely post pics. Thank you all for the info.

 

Ben

[emccomas]

Yes, WWI vets who applied for the medal received engraved medals during WWII and beyond. There were quite a few WWI PH's issued during WWII, and everyone I have seen were officially engraved.

 

WWI PH's were issued by application from the vet, so no WWI KIA PH's were issued.

 

I have a 1961 issued WWI PH in my collection, which is also officially engraved

 

Tom;

 

Just so I understand, have you ever seen a WWI PH, issued at any time, that was NOT engraved at all?

 

I have one in the 7000 number range that is privately engraved, but I cannot find any evidence that a previous engraving was removed.

 

From your experience, how deep (in thousandths of an inch) would you say the official engraving is on 1932 issue PHs?

[tom2001]

Tom;

 

Just so I understand, have you ever seen a WWI PH, issued at any time, that was NOT engraved at all?

 

I have one in the 7000 number range that is privately engraved, but I cannot find any evidence that a previous engraving was removed.

 

From your experience, how deep (in thousandths of an inch) would you say the official engraving is on 1932 issue PHs?

 

No, I have never seen an un-engraved early 1930's manufactured PH.

 

I don't own a micrometer, so I couldn't guess about the depth of the engraving. But I have seen a number of defaced PH's, with names removed by the family for privacy purposes (go figure!!). By the time you get deep enough to obliterate the engraving, you've also removed a lot of the gilt plating on the medal. I think it would be pretty difficult to re-plate the medal back to its original gilt finish, and then re-engrave it.

 

Pics would definitely help.

 

Are you absolutely sure it's privately engraved?

 

I suppose anything is possible, like an extra case of first contract PH's getting lost in a warehouse, and issued later, but I've never seen one

[Jack's Son]

.....................(see the sold listings on this forum).........................Dave

We Have SOLD LISTINGS back on the forum???

When did they come back??? :think:

Where are they??? :w00t:

 

OH!...........thanks Dave.

[tom2001]

Dave and John,

 

You're right in that my question was very general and the answer could be 100-1000. I guess I was just trying to get a rough idea as to how much less a WW2 era PH to a WWI veteran would be worth compared to the same exact medal but from the early 30's. There is a photo and a dog tag along with the medal. Unfortunately, no wound certificate.

 

If I am able to purchase the medal I will definitely post pics. Thank you all for the info.

 

Ben

 

Hi Ben,

 

Nobody really likes throwing numbers out here... it creates a trick bag for both sellers and buyers. If I say a WWI PH is worth $300, and you just sold one for $250, did you leave money on the table? If the next guy has one for sale on his web site for $350, is he trying to rip me off?

 

Yes, we all need to be aware of market values when we buy or sell, but over the long haul it's really ok if you pay a little more to get something you really want.

 

I guess if I actively collected WWI PH's, I'd want a numbered early issue, rather than an unnumbered Army type III issued during WWII, hence the slight difference in pricing. And we're talking 10s and 20s of dollars difference, not 100s difference!

[Collector5516]

Hi Ben,

 

Nobody really likes throwing numbers out here... it creates a trick bag for both sellers and buyers. If I say a WWI PH is worth $300, and you just sold one for $250, did you leave money on the table? If the next guy has one for sale on his web site for $350, is he trying to rip me off?

 

Yes, we all need to be aware of market values when we buy or sell, but over the long haul it's really ok if you pay a little more to get something you really want.

 

I guess if I actively collected WWI PH's, I'd want a numbered early issue, rather than an unnumbered Army type III issued during WWII, hence the slight difference in pricing. And we're talking 10s and 20s of dollars difference, not 100s difference!

 

 

Tom,

 

I understand your point and agree with you. I did check the sold listings but couldn't find an example of what I was looking for. As I said earlier I just wanted to have a rough idea as to how much less a later issue is worth vs. a similar early issue. I have bought numerous items "for more than they were worth" because I really liked them and was just happy to have them in my collection.

 

Ben

[Too Much WW1 Militaria]

There WERE a some WW1 KIA PH's that fell through the cracks. The families applied for them. They are about as hard to find as hen's teeth, and in the grand scheme of things, the exception rather than the rule. In 50 years of collecting, I've only seen 3 to WW1 KIA's, none of which I own.

 

As far as prices for either WW1 or WW2 hearts go, it depends on many factors. Condition, unit, amount of paperwork, what is with the heart, mailing boxes, it's a pretty long list. I'd venture to say that you'd get a lot more for a WW2 Airborne or FSSF heart, than you would for a standard Infantry KIA heart. Units do matter, although in my mind they shourdn't. Basic laws of supply and demand are at work here. A large number of Airborne/FSSF collectors tied to a very limited supply = higher prices. The heart itself is the important thing, for what it repersents when engraved, someone who gave everything so that we can live the way we do today.

 

As far as government engraving, I just got an official set back from NARA for my uncle who was wounded in WW2. Current issue medals in the bluish carboard box, I was really surpirsed when I opened them up and they were engraved. I thought they quit doing that sometime after Vietnam was over. I served from 68-95, and none of my medals were engraved, thank god my hearts weren't! LOL

 

Hope this helps make the mud a little clearer,

 

Jack

[emccomas]

No, I have never seen an un-engraved early 1930's manufactured PH.

 

I don't own a micrometer, so I couldn't guess about the depth of the engraving. But I have seen a number of defaced PH's, with names removed by the family for privacy purposes (go figure!!). By the time you get deep enough to obliterate the engraving, you've also removed a lot of the gilt plating on the medal. I think it would be pretty difficult to re-plate the medal back to its original gilt finish, and then re-engrave it.

 

Pics would definitely help.

 

Are you absolutely sure it's privately engraved?

 

I suppose anything is possible, like an extra case of first contract PH's getting lost in a warehouse, and issued later, but I've never seen one

 

Tom;

 

This is a PH that I just got from another forum member. The style of engraving really got my attention, which is why I bought it. The seller stated

that it looked like the original engraving had been removed, and the PH privately engraved. That is what I thought too until I started looking at it closely (with my new microscope). It just doesn't seem like any metal was removed, based on my measurements. Just another mystery involving Purple Hearts. I have no doubt that this is private engraving.

 

I could see that the lines underneath the "For Military Merit" phrase were scratches, and not division lines where metal had been removed. That is when I got the vernier calipers out. I need to check the measurements against a 200,000 numbered range un named PH that I have to see how they compare.

 

Here is a link to the for sale thread for the PH, and the pics.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...c=95489&hl=

[tom2001]

Tom;

 

This is a PH that I just got from another forum member. The style of engraving really got my attention, which is why I bought it. The seller stated

that it looked like the original engraving had been removed, and the PH privately engraved. That is what I thought too until I started looking at it closely (with my new microscope). It just doesn't seem like any metal was removed, based on my measurements. Just another mystery involving Purple Hearts. I have no doubt that this is private engraving.

 

I could see that the lines underneath the "For Military Merit" phrase were scratches, and not division lines where metal had been removed. That is when I got the vernier calipers out. I need to check the measurements against a 200,000 numbered range un named PH that I have to see how they compare.

 

Here is a link to the for sale thread for the PH, and the pics.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...c=95489&hl=

 

OK, this is pure speculation on my part, and shows my lack of knowledge about early Purple Hearts. So I stand to be corrected.

 

As you know, until about 1943, the PH was awarded for meritorious action, as well as for wounds. Most of the meritorious PH's were issued to those who received a Meritorious Service Citation Certificate (MSCC) for WWI, but there were about 200 meritorious PH's awarded from 1932 to 1943, before the practice of meritorious awards was stopped.

 

I'm wondering if this medal was issued for meritorious action (based on the citation provided) which was later upgraded to a Soldiers Medal, as noted in the handwritten notation on the award card.

 

I've seen a few MSCC officially engraved PH's (awarded 14+ years after the fact), but now I'm wondering if meritoriously awarded PH's to serving personnel were awarded engraved or unengraved. I've never seen one.

[BigJohn#3RD]

Very interesting, I must have missed the Purple Heart, it definitely is from that range of numbers and it looks like it has been ground down and redone. who ever did it was very good and a professional. May be the 1st Sgt White had it done. :think: I guess we will never know, but it is a very nice Purple Heart and with very good documentation. :thumbsup:

Regards

John

[emccomas]

OK, this is pure speculation on my part, and shows my lack of knowledge about early Purple Hearts. So I stand to be corrected.

 

As you know, until about 1943, the PH was awarded for meritorious action, as well as for wounds. Most of the meritorious PH's were issued to those who received a Meritorious Service Citation Certificate (MSCC) for WWI, but there were about 200 meritorious PH's awarded from 1932 to 1943, before the practice of meritorious awards was stopped.

 

I'm wondering if this medal was issued for meritorious action (based on the citation provided) which was later upgraded to a Soldiers Medal, as noted in the handwritten notation on the award card.

 

I've seen a few MSCC officially engraved PH's (awarded 14+ years after the fact), but now I'm wondering if meritoriously awarded PH's to serving personnel were awarded engraved or unengraved. I've never seen one.

 

We are speculating that this PH is for 1st Sergeant Lyle E. White. As stated in the original ad for the PH, we don't know that for sure. It could also be for 2nd Lt. Lyle E. White, or some other Lyle E. White.

 

As regards the Soldiers Medal for 1st Sergeant Lyle E. White, I found the text of the actual citation:

 

The President of the United States of America, authorized by Act of Congress, July 2, 1926, takes pleasure in presenting the Soldier's Medal to First Sergeant Lyle E. White (ASN: R-194302), United States Army, for heroism, not involving actual conflict with an enemy, displayed while serving with the 34th Infantry Regiment, by endangering his life in rescuing a woman from drowning in the James River at Martin's Beach, near Fort Eustis, Virginia, 9 August 1928, Sergeant White, while on the shore, noticed that a woman was caught in the swift current of the stream and was being carried out to midstream. Upon hearing her cries for help, Sergeant White quickly swam to her assistance and with much difficulty succeeded in bringing her safely to shore.

General Orders: War Department, General Orders No. 6 (1931)

Action Date: 9-Aug-28

Service: Army

Rank: First Sergeant

Regiment: 34th Infantry Regiment

 

 

As you can see, 1st Sgt White got his SM in 1931 (General Orders No. 6), so this PH was probably not awarded to 1st Sgt White for the action indicated in the SM citation above.

 

Your question about PHs awarded for MSCC is an interesting one.

 

I have requested the Purple Heart award card for Lyle E. White from St. Louis. Haven't heard anything back yet. It should be interesting.

[emccomas]

Very interesting, I must have missed the Purple Heart, it definitely is from that range of numbers and it looks like it has been ground down and redone. who ever did it was very good and a professional. May be the 1st Sgt White had it done. :think: I guess we will never know, but it is a very nice Purple Heart and with very good documentation. :thumbsup:

Regards

John

 

John;

 

I also thought it was ground down and re-done, until I looked at it under the microscope. Then I took some measurements, and I can't see enough variation in the thickness of the planchet to state that metal was removed. That is why I am wondering if it was never officially engraved. I need to find a way to measure the depth of official engraving, so I can determine how much metal would had to have been removed to erase the official engraving.

 

Clearly this is private engraving, and I absolutely love the style of engraving. That is why I bought it.

 

And it really doesn't matter to me if it has been ground down and re-engraved or not. But it is a mystery, and I love mysteries.

 

I am trying to get the Purple Heart award card for Lyle E. White from St. Louis. Hopefully, that will at least clear up the mystery of which Lyle E. White this PH was awarded to.

[BigJohn#3RD]

I know official government engravings were done on WWI Purple Hearts for all recipients (not just KIA). What I would like to know is how long did this practice continue. For example... if a WWI veteran applied for a Purple Heart in 1944 would his name be engraved on the reverse? Were they only doing official engravings for KIA at that point, including retroactive applications? Thanks!

 

To answer your question yes the Government still engraved WWI Purple Hearts. I have a Purple Heart issued to a WWI Veteran with an official engraved script dating between 1945 to 1947 based on the Card the came with it signed by the Secretary of War Robert P Patterson who served in that position from his appoint by President Truman in 1945 until 1947. Please look at the thread I have posted below as it should answer your question

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...mp;#entry709386

 

Now I have a question: do you have a picture of the engraving of the Purple Heart that you are writing about? I ask this so the SMEs (Subject Matter Experts) can help you determine if this is an officially engraved medal from the period.

 

Regards,

John

[emccomas]

OK, yet another mystery regarding the PH for Lyle E. White that I just realized. The broach is split broach (correct for early PHs) but the catch style is open, not closed.

 

All of the other early BB&B PHs that I have seen have been split broach, closed catch style. I have seen pictures of four other early PHs ranging from the mid 2000 numbers to the late 9000 numbers (this one is 7383). All four had split broach, closed catch broaches.

 

I suspect that the broach on this PH has been replaced.

 

Here is a pic of the open catch on this PH, and a closed catch on a low 3000 number PH.

 

Thoughts?

 

[Too Much WW1 Militaria]

Yeah, looking at it, I'd say the broach has been replaced at some point, from the looks of it, it was done quite a while ago. I had one that was actually held together by a wooden matchstick. The ribbon on the heart was good, and the matchstick was old. Go figure!

 

Jack

 

 

OK, yet another mystery regarding the PH for Lyle E. White that I just realized. The broach is split broach (correct for early PHs) but the catch style is open, not closed.

 

All of the other early BB&B PHs that I have seen have been split broach, closed catch style. I have seen pictures of four other early PHs ranging from the mid 2000 numbers to the late 9000 numbers (this one is 7383). All four had split broach, closed catch broaches.

 

I suspect that the broach on this PH has been replaced.

 

Here is a pic of the open catch on this PH, and a closed catch on a low 3000 number PH.

 

Thoughts?

 

[Too Much WW1 Militaria]

It would take a ton of grinding to remove the engraving. From the sounds of it, that might be the original engraving on it.