Enlisted Pilot Wings

[grokett]

Attached are the original set of Enlisted Pilot Wings belonging to my grandfather, Private Joseph P. Santos. He served with the 210th Aero Squadron in Doncaster, England, and earned his wings while detached to the 1107th Aero Replacement Squadron in September and October 1918. I am trying to replicate his uniform, as his original was destroyed by moths some years ago. I will attach a photo of him in uniform.

 

Joe

[grokett]

Attached are the original set of Enlisted Pilot Wings belonging to my grandfather, Private Joseph P. Santos. He served with the 210th Aero Squadron in Doncaster, England, and earned his wings while detached to the 1107th Aero Replacement Squadron in September and October 1918. I am trying to replicate his uniform, as his original was destroyed by moths some years ago. I will attach a photo of him in uniform.

 

Joe

 

Here is a photo of my grandfather in uniform wearing his Enlisted Pilot Wings.

 

Joe

[dmar836]

Excellent. Keep us updated!

[grokett]

Excellent. Keep us updated!

Thank you! I sure will. Right now I'm trying to determin if he was entitled to any shoulder insignias. He was a machinist and graduated from Aviation Mechanics School at Kelly Field in May 1918, but the Aviation Machinists patches I've seen were for those based in France, I think. I should probably address this in the forum for patches and insignias.

 

Than you again!

 

Joe

[pfrost]

Thank you! I sure will. Right now I'm trying to determin if he was entitled to any shoulder insignias. He was a machinist and graduated from Aviation Mechanics School at Kelly Field in May 1918, but the Aviation Machinists patches I've seen were for those based in France, I think. I should probably address this in the forum for patches and insignias.

 

Than you again!

 

Joe

 

You may want to check this thread

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...=11594&st=0

 

I posted a picture of an aviation mechanic wearing his shoulder insignia. I don't know if he was overseas, but his friend was.

 

Also, a patch for the 184 aerosquadron, which I don't believe ever went overseas.

 

Nice wing you posted. Welcome and I hope you can share more with us!

 

Best

Patrick

[grokett]

You may want to check this thread

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...=11594&st=0

 

I posted a picture of an aviation mechanic wearing his shoulder insignia. I don't know if he was overseas, but his friend was.

 

Also, a patch for the 184 aerosquadron, which I don't believe ever went overseas.

 

Nice wing you posted. Welcome and I hope you can share more with us!

 

Best

Patrick

 

Thank you for your input, Patrick! I'm wondering if, once an enlisted man earned his pilot wings, he would quit wearing the Aviation Mechanics patch? I have always wondered why my grandfather never had a shoulder patch indicating a unit. I recently purchased this Air Service Mechanic patch, believing he might be entitled to it, but I discovered that this was for the First Aviation Mechanic Regiment in France. Live and learn. I'm beginning to think that he was wearing exactly what he was entitled to wear.

 

Thank you again!

 

Joe

[CliffP]

Attached are the original set of Enlisted Pilot Wings belonging to my grandfather, Private Joseph P. Santos. He served with the 210th Aero Squadron in Doncaster, England, and earned his wings while detached to the 1107th Aero Replacement Squadron in September and October 1918. I am trying to replicate his uniform, as his original was destroyed by moths some years ago. I will attach a photo of him in uniform.

 

Joe

 

Joe,

 

Not only is your grandfather's Enlisted Pilot insignia an outstanding example for its type, it could well be one of a kind. Frankly, up until today I’d given up hope of ever seeing a set which had actually been made in England accompanied with a period photograph to substantiate its authenticity. Not only is his an eye-opener to many of us who appreciate what it represents; it’s a priceless piece of history that your family is very fortunate to have.

 

By the way, while not everyone will agree, I would have second thoughts about reattaching it to someone else’s uniform. Rather than doing that, you might consider having it framed by a professional along with a copy of the photograph you were so kind to share with us, and then hung in a special place within your home away from direct sunlight.

 

Thank you for sharing your good fortune with us. It is very much appreciated.

 

Cliff Presley

[LuftStalg1]

Very nice! :twothumbup: And now I am wondering what the insignia is on the Overseas cap? :think:

[grokett]

Joe,

 

Not only is your grandfather's Enlisted Pilot insignia an outstanding example for its type, it could well be one of a kind. Frankly, up until today I’d given up hope of ever seeing a set which had actually been made in England accompanied with a period photograph to substantiate its authenticity. Not only is his an eye-opener to many of us who appreciate what it represents; it’s a priceless piece of history that your family is very fortunate to have.

 

By the way, while not everyone will agree, I would have second thoughts about reattaching it to someone else’s uniform. Rather than doing that, you might consider having it framed by a professional along with a copy of the photograph you were so kind to share with us, and then hung in a special place within your home away from direct sunlight.

 

Thank you for sharing your good fortune with us. It is very much appreciated.

 

Cliff Presley

 

Hi Cliff,

 

Thank you for your revealing comments. I understand that most Enlisted Pilots during the war earned them at Kelly Field, where my grandfather first learned to fly, and then, if sent overseas, earned them by ferrying aircraft from French hangars to the front lines. My grandfather was assigned to the 210th Aero Squadron, but detached to the 1107th at Flowerdown. Flowerdown was a huge replacement depot where my grandfather was a machinist on aircraft and trained other machinists. He was a machinist his entire life, and very, very good at what he did, despite limited education. I'm not just bragging; other machinists who saw his work commented on the quality and rare angles achieved.

 

In late September 1918, it was decided to transfer the Air Service Depot at Flowerdown to Codford due to the harsh winters. They needed pilots to transport supplies and ferry aircraft to Codford and my grandfather volunteered. Lt. Elijah Bright, the Supply Officer, got the okaqy from the CO after a check flight, and the rest if a minor piece of aviation history. A sad footnote: Lt. Bright died from influenza in November 1918, just before the war ended.

 

I had considered joining the Marines, like my Uncle Norman Santos, but my grandmother asked that I join the "Air Corps". She went to her bedroom and gave me my grandfather's wings, discharge chevron, overseas stripes and collar brass, and told me that I should follow in his footsteps. After all, I was named after him, he was my godfather, and there was no one I had been closer too. I joined the Air Force.

 

I will certainly take your recommendation into consideration. I also have my Uncle Bud Grokett's uniform displayed. He was with the 127th Infantry Regiment in WWII and was wounded on the Villa Verde Trail on March 10, 1945. But that's another story.

 

Thank you again!

 

Joe

[grokett]

Very nice! :twothumbup: And now I am wondering what the insignia is on the Overseas cap? :think:

 

You're thinking like me! I've never seen anything like it in my research. Here is an alternate photo...

[grokett]

Very nice! :twothumbup: And now I am wondering what the insignia is on the Overseas cap? :think:

 

Here is another photo, closer up than the others....

[grokett]

Very nice! :twothumbup: And now I am wondering what the insignia is on the Overseas cap? :think:

And one more. If you have any suggestions, please let me know. I'm very interested!!

 

Thank you,

 

Joe

[grokett]

And one more. If you have any suggestions, please let me know. I'm very interested!!

 

Thank you,

 

Joe

 

It appears to be a round disk with a propeller. It amazed me that you could wear so many variences during World War I. You couldn't do that when I was in. But I guess that's what make this fun...and challenging!

[grokett]

Very nice! :twothumbup: And now I am wondering what the insignia is on the Overseas cap? :think:

Hi Mark,

 

You're interested in Stalag Luft I. I am a published author and am currently writing a book on all Air Force Medal of Honor recipients. John "Red" Morgan was in that camp and I have a great bio on him, if you need it for your research. Just let me know.

 

Joe

[hawk3370]

You're thinking like me! I've never seen anything like it in my research. Here is an alternate photo...

 

Beautiful wing and interesting picture. The cap insignia somewhat resembles the RAC/RAF cap insignia worn by the brits. Since he was in England while performing as a transport/ferry pilot perhaps he felt that might be appriopriate. Do you know where the pictures were taken ie overseas or stateside. The 1107th ended up in Garden City, NY perhaps they were taken there. I concur with Cliff in that these wings documented with the picture are extremely rare and mounting them in a frame with the picture would be much better then sewing them to some other guys tunic. As for a unit patch, he is not wearing one in the pictures and I suspect that none were available for the units he was assigned to at that period of time. Thanks for sharing with us. Very nice indeed.

 

Terry

[John Cooper]

Joe- thanks for cross posting your Granfathers wings. I had a feeling they would generate a few replies PM me when you post your uncles uniform as i would like to see it.

 

Cheers and thanks again!

John

[grokett]

Joe- thanks for cross posting your Granfathers wings. I had a feeling they would generate a few replies PM me when you post your uncles uniform as i would like to see it.

 

Cheers and thanks again!

John

 

I'l be sure to do that, John. The only thing we have right now is a cell phone camera, but will still give it a try.

 

Thank again for your kind comments!

 

Joe

[grokett]

Beautiful wing and interesting picture. The cap insignia somewhat resembles the RAC/RAF cap insignia worn by the brits. Since he was in England while performing as a transport/ferry pilot perhaps he felt that might be appriopriate. Do you know where the pictures were taken ie overseas or stateside. The 1107th ended up in Garden City, NY perhaps they were taken there. I concur with Cliff in that these wings documented with the picture are extremely rare and mounting them in a frame with the picture would be much better then sewing them to some other guys tunic. As for a unit patch, he is not wearing one in the pictures and I suspect that none were available for the units he was assigned to at that period of time. Thanks for sharing with us. Very nice indeed.

 

Terry

 

Thank you for your input, Terry! I think you may be right about the cap insignia. I wonder what happened to it, as all the other items were carefully packaged with his things in his dresser when he died. I'm going to keep looking for something that resembles it.

 

I have been thinking and believe that you and John are right. I should really preserve these wings. I never realized they were so rare.

 

As for my grandfather, he returned to the 210th Aero Squadron the same day the Armistice was signed and departed Liverpool aboard the Minnekahda on November 22. This was the first ship to return troops to the United States (along with the Lapland and Orca), and they arrived in New York Harbor on December 4. On the ninth, he departed for Camp Kearney and was discharged on December 22. The photograph was taken when he arrived back in Pinole, California. The person with him in the photo was my uncle, Manuel Santos.

 

My grandfather earned his wings in mid-October, and I don't think there were any photos of him taken in England after that time. It was pretty busy.

 

I hope this gives you a little more insight. I spent some time researching my grandfather's military service for the family history I put together for the kids.

 

Thank you again,

 

Joe

[cthomas]

Superb documentation of a rare wing! Thank you for taking the time to share it with us.

 

I saw that unusual cap device as well. Once I peeled my eyes away from those rare wings, I started looking into that cap insignia. It reminded me of this piece from my collection:

 

 

 

The proportions are not an exact match but I figured I'd offer it anyway. It's sort of ironic because I had the impression this example could be of British origin & related somehow to an aviation mechanic.

 

If you have a moment, take a look at the rest of the thread I started for more unusual variants of WWI aviation insignia. Here it is:

 

WWI Aviation Insignia Thread (click here)

[grokett]

Superb documentation of a rare wing! Thank you for taking the time to share it with us.

 

I saw that unusual cap device as well. Once I peeled my eyes away from those rare wings, I started looking into that cap insignia. It reminded me of this piece from my collection:

 

 

 

The proportions are not an exact match but I figured I'd offer it anyway. It's sort of ironic because I had the impression this example could be of British origin & related somehow to an aviation mechanic.

 

If you have a moment, take a look at the rest of the thread I started for more unusual variants of WWI aviation insignia. Here it is:

 

WWI Aviation Insignia Thread (click here)

 

Greetings, Chuck! While the wings might not be exact, I'm of the mindset that they are a similar version of what my grandfather was wearing. I haven't seen anything else that has even come close. He was a spectacular machinist--I've seen a lot of his detailed work--and I wouldn't put it past him making his own cap insignia. I wish he were still alive. Now that I know what to ask, it would be fun to ask him!

 

I absolutely love the collection you've aquired and this forum is right up my alley. I thought I knew a lot, but I'm learning much, much more every day!

 

Thank you very much!!

 

Joe

[cthomas]

Greetings, Chuck! While the wings might not be exact, I'm of the mindset that they are a similar version of what my grandfather was wearing. I haven't seen anything else that has even come close. He was a spectacular machinist--I've seen a lot of his detailed work--and I wouldn't put it past him making his own cap insignia. I wish he were still alive. Now that I know what to ask, it would be fun to ask him!

 

I absolutely love the collection you've aquired and this forum is right up my alley. I thought I knew a lot, but I'm learning much, much more every day!

 

Thank you very much!!

 

Joe

 

Joe-

It could very well be that your Grandfather put a custom piece on his overseas cap. Given his background, it seems a very plausible explanation as to what we're seeing in the photo.

Thank you for your comments on that thread I posted. That was an old snapshot showing just a handful of variants out there. If aviation insignia is your passion, then you've definitelty come to the right place. Welcome!

 

-Chuck

[grokett]

Joe-

It could very well be that your Grandfather put a custom piece on his overseas cap. Given his background, it seems a very plausible explanation as to what we're seeing in the photo.

Thank you for your comments on that thread I posted. That was an old snapshot showing just a handful of variants out there. If aviation insignia is your passion, then you've definitelty come to the right place. Welcome!

 

-Chuck

 

This forum is a wealth of information and I am certainly enjoying every aspect of it. I have more stuff to post and get opinions on, but this was at the forefront of my research. I was very close to my grandfather and now learning that his minor role in aviation was in fact significant because he was one of a very few Enlisted Pilots. I'm glad I was able to share this with such experts!

 

Thank you again!!

 

Joe