WESTERN G 46-8, QUESTIONS

[GMPETE]

Hello all- I am a new member of the community and was hoping someone could help me with information on WWII WESTERN G 46-8 combat knives.

I have one of these knives from my grandfather, who picked it up "on the beach" when he landed as a marine on Namur in the assault waves Feb 1, 1944. He told me he always figured one of the UDT guys (UDT 2, I think) dropped it because the marines had KA-BARS (which I took to mean standard Mk II's) and he said "noone else had been there" (which I took to mean other than other marines and the japanese). It is my understanding that UDT's (1 & 2) did not go ashore during their pre-invasion reconnaisance of ROI-NAMUR, but were with the assault companies when they landed that day. The sheath on these knives don't really fit the M-1936 belts, so what is the deal?

 

1)who was WESTERN expecting to use the knives if they did not make them for the standard combat belt?

2)who got them and how....issue, private purchase, trade with other services?

 

.....and I think I read somewhere that the mirror blue finish on WESTERN's was prized as being more corrosion resistant than the phosphate finish on most other martial knives of the war.

3)is this correct?

4)does anyone know what knives the UDT's used?

 

Lastly, this knife is marked only 'WESTERN' on the ricasso, nothing else. No PAT'D, no #'s.

5)Does this mean anything in the way of dating etc.?

 

Any help on any of these points would be greatly appreciated. I will work on learning how to load photos so that I can show pictures if they are of interest.

Happy to be a member of the Forum-

Regards- G.M.P.

[gunbarrel]

Hi G.M.P. and welcome to the Forum!

 

I will give you a few answers (below) so that you will not think that you are being ignored. It's just that there is a lot to cover, and someone like Frank Trzaska would do a better job than me 1,000 times.I've asked him to drop by and do so, if he has some free time.

 

There is a reference topic on Western Cutlery here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...c=1975&st=0

 

Also, if you can get your hands on a copy of "Military Knives - A Reference Book," there is an excellent article by Mike Silvey on p. 37 titled "Western Cutlery's WWII Legacy."

 

Hello all- I am a new member of the community and was hoping someone could help me with information on WWII WESTERN G 46-8 combat knives.

 

1)who was WESTERN expecting to use the knives if they did not make them for the standard combat belt? Per MS's article--"During the war, Western was one of the largest suppliers of knives to the government and U.S. servicemen."

2)who got them and how....issue, private purchase, trade with other services?All three.

 

.....and I think I read somewhere that the mirror blue finish on WESTERN's was prized as being more corrosion resistant than the phosphate finish on most other martial knives of the war.

b]3)is this correct? No. The Mark 2's were also blued at the very beginning; then, switched to parkerizing for economic reasons and for better resistance to the elements. FYI, the second variation of the G46-8 has a bright finished blade.

4)does anyone know what knives the UDT's used? Good question. Apparently NOT the smooth handle USN Mark 2's! I believe they used regular Mark 2's as well as Mark 1's.

 

Lastly, this knife is marked only 'WESTERN' on the ricasso, nothing else. No PAT'D, no #'s.

5)Does this mean anything in the way of dating etc.? More on the patent here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=32643

Any help on any of these points would be greatly appreciated. I will work on learning how to load photos so that I can show pictures if they are of interest.

Happy to be a member of the Forum-

Regards- G.M.P.

[Greg Robinson]

here's a topic I started a while back

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...?showtopic=1975

[GMPETE]

Thanks GB and Greg.

I have read through the previous posts that you both suggested, and found them very informative. There are some beautiful knives featured. Also, thanks GB for the info regarding the polished finish and the rec. on MILITARY KNIVES. I intend to get a copy. I have followed the UDT Mk. II controversy, by the way.

 

I am aware that WESTERN made a wide range of knives which ended up in service during the war....(it seems like most were with air service personel and models other than the 46-8). My interest is specifically the G 46-8. I gather WESTERN hoped the marines would pick it up, but they passed due to cost. If WESTERN was making them anyway, why did they not make some provision for them fitting the pistol and cartridge belts as with the L-77, for example with the integral wire hanger? This would certainly have made them more appealing for someone choosing to buy one in favor of a standard Mk.II they got for free. And if the Marines did not contract for the G 46-8, did any of the other services where the belt was not an issue?

 

Regarding the mark. I have looked at a fair number of G-46-8s over the years, and have yet to see another one marked only 'WESTERN', So I am still curious if this is just a variation or indicative of an early batch that might have been distributed to interest the service(s) in a contract or some such? The mark dating chart in the earlier post thread does not include this mark, though it mentions there are variations. (I know my knife was at least pre Feb. 1 of '44.......)

 

I am likely barking up a tree, but I have wondered over the years how this knife ended up on the beach that day in '44. My grandfather found it unusual, and continued to suspect a UDT connection up to the time he gave it to me. I personally don't care one way or the other (although it would be pretty swell if there was a verifiable UDT connection), but pursuing a fuller understanding of the possibilities has led me here just in case there may be an answer. The possibilities are probably endless. I know if you elongate the slits for the belt on the sheath you weaken it to the point it would be prone to tearing off the belt. Unfortunately, I never saw the original sheath to this knife (he had another made) so I cannot comment on this except to say that nothing he ever said about it indicated anything other than it had been 'dropped'. By whom is the question......

 

Any additional thoughts?

[gunbarrel]

Greg,

I didn't forget your reference topic I guess you didn't notice that I had listed a link to it on my response to G.M.P. I was sure to do that since there is some very good info there.

 

G.M.P.,

I'm sure FT will have some additional information. It may be a few days before he comes around. Thanks for posting what could turn out to be a most interesting topic.

[Bill Walters]

Hello all- I am a new member of the community and was hoping someone could help me with information on WWII WESTERN G 46-8 combat knives.

I have one of these knives from my grandfather, who picked it up "on the beach" when he landed as a marine on Namur in the assault waves Feb 1, 1944. He told me he always figured one of the UDT guys (UDT 2, I think) dropped it because the marines had KA-BARS (which I took to mean standard Mk II's) and he said "noone else had been there" (which I took to mean other than other marines and the japanese). It is my understanding that UDT's (1 & 2) did not go ashore during their pre-invasion reconnaisance of ROI-NAMUR, but were with the assault companies when they landed that day. The sheath on these knives don't really fit the M-1936 belts, so what is the deal?

 

1)who was WESTERN expecting to use the knives if they did not make them for the standard combat belt?

2)who got them and how....issue, private purchase, trade with other services?

 

.....and I think I read somewhere that the mirror blue finish on WESTERN's was prized as being more corrosion resistant than the phosphate finish on most other martial knives of the war.

3)is this correct?

4)does anyone know what knives the UDT's used?

 

Lastly, this knife is marked only 'WESTERN' on the ricasso, nothing else. No PAT'D, no #'s.

5)Does this mean anything in the way of dating etc.?

 

 

Does your Western have a bright blade, thick red spacer at the guard and pommel and the the Pat'd # stamped on top the pommel? If so, you have one of the rarer Western 8" variations. I have included photos of my Western bright blade and red spacers at the pommel and guard along with the correct sheath.

 

I have attached a photo of my two blue blade 8" Westerns with the correct sheaths that I have in my collection. The markings on the ricasso are different on each knife.

 

I quite seriously doubt that this or any other Western knife was used by the UDT. Western's exposed tang construction would make the knife highly susceptible to rust and handle deteriorization.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

Any help on any of these points would be greatly appreciated. I will work on learning how to load photos so that I can show pictures if they are of interest.

Happy to be a member of the Forum-

Regards- G.M.P.

[Tony-in-NH]

Super knives.Bill. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[SKIPH]

Just out of curiosity! Has anyone ever read an explanation as to why Western G 46-8 used such an inferior scabbard. The upper belt loop portion did not seem to have been well thought out. That design is better suited to a 5" blade, but not a big heavy 8". A loop similar to a MK2 leather sheath would have been better, and would hang lower on the waist, probably eliminating a lot of damage to that portion of the sheath. Granted, there may have been restrictions on leather for war use. Plus you're restricted to a small belt. It's a shame, they're great knives. Just my opinion. SKIP

[gunbarrel]

Skip,

 

My guess is that the scabbard is not stronger because it was designed for a hunting knife; not for a military knife. Had it been submitted to and accepted by the military, the Western scabbards would not have met military specifications and they would have had to come up with a beefier design, like the leather scabbards for the Mark 2 knives. Don't forget that even those were later replaced by the Navy with the plastic grey ones for greater resistance to the elements, particulalry at sea.

[elbertson]

I'm thinking that if Western had been awarded a contract for the G46-8, they might have had to provide a differently designed sheath. It seems that since they were commercial offerings, they probably just decided to upscale the typical hunting knife sheaths they were already producing. I'd imagine the supply of leather available without a contract may have played into it.

 

Oops, looks like GB was thinking along the same lines and beat me to it while I was fiddlin' around!

[SKIPH]

Gunbarrel- Agree 100%! But, you would think that even though they had no contract, that Western would have improved the design just to make it more compatible just to increase commercial and PX sales. Oh well! Can only speculate as to why Western did things that way. SKIP

[GMPETE]

Thanks to all for the interest and comments guys-

 

Bill-

The sad news: My grandfathers's knife spent most of its post-war career in a ranch house drawer where the rats snacked on the handle, so I never saw the spacers. I have since restored it with black/red/black, (which sounds like might have been a mistake!) What I know:

*It did have red and black spacers as I guess they all did (actual configuration unknown).

*It is marked on the ricasso exactly as per your photo. WESTERN

*It has no markings on the pommel.

*The blade is/was mirror blue.

 

As I mentioned he replaced the sheath pretty early on, so I never saw that either, but other than double stitch vs. single stitch, I think they are all the same? If I had seen the sheath, I could probably say whether it was ever on a pistol or cartridge belt.....which might have been significant info....

(I agree with Tony: super knives, by the way)

 

Regarding the UDT thing. I generally agree with you. The exposed tang was probably not a very good design for the PTO altogether. However, my understanding is that at this point in the war the UDT guys were not exactly dressing for the water when they went out. The guys are said to have all been wearing standard combat gear, helmets, boots, and so forth (I think a few with swim trunks under) when they did their recons by rubber boat the night before. And then there is the demo for the marines on land during the assualt....

 

SKIPH-GB-elbertson

That is one of the things that I am curious about. It seems like Western would have presented a Mk. II loop type sheath to the government if they really wanted it to fly with The Corps. And maybe they did, as a prototype, and once the knife was declined they reverted to standard hunting knife type sheaths so as not to re-tool, and then kept making a knife pretty much nobody wanted or could use? Or maybe it never got that far. But wasn't the 8 produced specifically to interest the gov't? As a serviceman in a px shopping for combat, it would be less than exciting to want to shell out top dollar on a lovely blue 'BIG 8' and not be able to put it on your belt!!!????

 

....and I would like to ask.....who on this earth went 'hunting' with a 13" combat bowie knife? Maybe that is why there seems to be so many of these around these days in fair shape.....nobody did! A guy who was a young boy after the war told me once that the WESTERN 8 was the knife all the kids wanted to play TARZAN.....!

Which leads me to:

 

Can someone tell me the production years of this knife?

Also, to verify.....ALL G 46-8 knives in service during the war were private purchase? There were no contracts?

 

So, is the consensus that this knife got into circulation as a private purchase (likely a marine) who then lost it that day (because it was in his pocket instead of on his belt!)?

 

Sorry for the loooooooong posts. I will try to shorten up in future.

Again, guys thanks. Keep it coming!

[SKIPH]

This has turned into an interesting thread. Like everyone else I like the knife! Would have carried one instead of a MK2, but the sheath was all wrong. Plus I couldn't get my hands on one when I was in. At that time I probably would not even considered handle design, until it fell apart. Great knife though! SKIP

[Greaser]

From talking with vets and digging through some photos - many of these "PX" knives were worn on the trouser belt and not the equipment belt. The story i've heard time and time again was that the knife was kept around at all times, since it was a tool. Field gear got taken off - but the knife stayed with you attached to your pants.

 

Its interesting that the "Q" Quartermaster knives as well as the M8 scabbard - as designed and produced came without the wire hanger to attach to pistol belts. Only later was the M8 design changed and examples altered to accommodate the wire hangers.

 

Something to think about.

[Bill Walters]

This has turned into an interesting thread. Like everyone else I like the knife! Would have carried one instead of a MK2, but the sheath was all wrong. Plus I couldn't get my hands on one when I was in. At that time I probably would not even considered handle design, until it fell apart. Great knife though! SKIP

 

 

With all due respect, I disagree with the comments that the Western 8" sheath was not up to the task. They were obviously not made with a belt hook, but most wartime sheaths didn't have the belt hook, including the first M8. I don't think that one can minimize the Western knife because of the sheath. If you look at most of the leather sheaths from WW2, you will see that the Western double-stiched and riveted sheaths are equal to most and superior to many other leather sheaths. The leather sheaths for the early Ka-bar/USMC, Pal/USMC and Robeson Shuredge/USMC were very flimsy. The Mark 2 sheaths were much higher quality only after Boyt began manufacturing the Mark 2 sheaths. If you examine the Mark 1 leather sheath and sheaths supplied for the 5" and 6" utility knives, I think that you will find the Western sheaths to be superior. Even the Camillus USMC Stiletto sheath is a very flimsy sheath. My guess is that most GI's didn't care if the sheath was a hunting knife sheath or a flimsy leather sheath as they couldn't kill the enemy or even trim their nails with a leather sheath. Those tasks required a real knife and one couldn't find a brawnier knife than the Western 8".

 

Bill

[SKIPH]

I very seldom wore a knife on my web gear. Web gear came off at some point. Plus when jumping we generally wore our web gear exposed, when you made a tree landing or a good landing, your equipment tended to get hung up in the parachute harness or suspension lines. I liked to have my knife on my person. Back in the early 70's we'd jump w/ our equipment in the aviator's kit bag. Occasionally the bag would separate from a jumper prior to/ or when the equipment was lowered. Water landings were another issue. SKIP

[GMPETE]

Bill-My main thing with the sheath is not that it is cheaper/inferior, but (correct me if I am wrong, because again I dont have the original) that the slits are not big enough to put it on a combat belt. You have to cut them longer. There is not enough leather left to go up, so you have to cut down almost to the throat which results in the belt interfering somewhat with insertion and withdrawal of the knife. WESTERN must have known this......

Greaser-

With the smaller knives for sure. But this big knife you can barely wear on your trouser belt under your utility jacket tail over which is your combat belt/suspenders/pack/gear etc. You can't really get to it. I know the guys did it, but all the pictures I have seen that show this seem to be taken after they had been at it a while, and had a chance to reconfigure their gear post landing.....and this knife was on the beach within the first half hour of the invasion, so everyone there was fully buttoned up and combat loaded. I must confess, though, I had not really thought about them suiting up that way...knife underneath......But no question, you always kept it close.

Bill-

I noticed an interesting thing about your knives. Your bright blade with the single stitch sheath has the snap closure up near the pommel, whereas all the regular ones I am familiar with have it down near the crossguard as with your other two. (Again, beautiful examples!) This may be nothing, but it seems to me the 'pommel' snap position is better for field service as it minimizes the possibility of snagging the handle on something. Off the top of my head, all the government contract Mk II and stiletto type knives had 'pommel' snap positions didn't they? What exactly is that bright blade one? Could it be the early version/configuration produced to entice the government? Do you have a date range for that knife?

 

Here's mine, anyway........(hope this works....)

[Bill Walters]

Bill-My main thing with the sheath is not that it is cheaper/inferior, but (correct me if I am wrong, because again I dont have the original) that the slits are not big enough to put it on a combat belt. You have to cut them longer. There is not enough leather left to go up, so you have to cut down almost to the throat which results in the belt interfering somewhat with insertion and withdrawal of the knife. WESTERN must have known this......

Greaser-

With the smaller knives for sure. But this big knife you can barely wear on your trouser belt under your utility jacket tail over which is your combat belt/suspenders/pack/gear etc. You can't really get to it. I know the guys did it, but all the pictures I have seen that show this seem to be taken after they had been at it a while, and had a chance to reconfigure their gear post landing.....and this knife was on the beach within the first half hour of the invasion, so everyone there was fully buttoned up and combat loaded. I must confess, though, I had not really thought about them suiting up that way...knife underneath......But no question, you always kept it close.

Bill-

I noticed an interesting thing about your knives. Your bright blade with the single stitch sheath has the snap closure up near the pommel, whereas all the regular ones I am familiar with have it down near the crossguard as with your other two. (Again, beautiful examples!) This may be nothing, but it seems to me the 'pommel' snap position is better for field service as it minimizes the possibility of snagging the handle on something. Off the top of my head, all the government contract Mk II and stiletto type knives had 'pommel' snap positions didn't they? What exactly is that bright blade one? Could it be the early version/configuration produced to entice the government? Do you have a date range for that knife?

 

Here's mine, anyway........(hope this works....)

 

 

GMPete. The slits on the Western sheath are 2 1/2 inches long. The webbing on the pistol belt is 2 1/4 inches and the buckle is just over 2 1/2 inches. To put the sheath on the pistol belt would require very little elongating of the slits. Obviously, with the width of the cartridge belt, it would be impractical to attempt the put the sheath on a cartridge belt unless it was on the belt adjustment which would put the knife going down the crack of your butt.

 

Bill, I guess the snap closure location would be a matter of one's preference. Western sheaths were one of the few ones that had the snap near the sheath's throat on the Sharks and 8" Westerns. Western even had the snap at the throat of the sheath on their "Commando Sheaths" with the belt hook that was used for the L76 and L77. See the attached photos. The Camillus USMC had a near identical sheath to the Western Commando sheath, but with the closure near the pommel. I do not know the reason for the difference. I am sure that someone has an opinion.

 

Bill

[elbertson]

Also bear in mind folks that if one decided to wear the knife on the web belt instead of the trouser belt, all you'd have to do is take a piece of cord or leather lace and tie it on through the belt loops. It wouldn't be a big deal and could probably be done faster than attaching and removing anything using those awful alice clips they came out with. I have a 5" bladed Western knife in an after market nylon webbing sheath that I keep tied like that to a web belt I use when deer hunting...works fine.

[GMPETE]

Thanks Bill for the additonal photos and explanation. So there probably isn't anything to the snap placement.

That is quite a collection you have.....!

 

I would still like to know what years the G 46-8 was produced if anyone knows.

 

Greaser has got me in the books looking at where everyone was wearing their knives......

 

I guess that pretty well covers it. I'll keep checking in though. Thanks to all.

[doyler]

The scabbard shown in post #17 doesnt appear to be a Western made/model scabbard.THe Western models all seem to be sewn and rivited from what I have enocountered.THis one looks like it may have been made as a replacement.Back in the early 80s I owned a WW2 Western G46-8 that had been sent back into the factory and rehandled with a black composition material and was also sent back with a newer black scabbrd.Western had also polished the whole knife to a bright finnish.

 

RD

[GMPETE]

The scabbard shown in post #17 doesnt appear to be a Western made/model scabbard.THe Western models all seem to be sewn and rivited from what I have enocountered.THis one looks like it may have been made as a replacement.Back in the early 80s I owned a WW2 Western G46-8 that had been sent back into the factory and rehandled with a black composition material and was also sent back with a newer black scabbrd.Western had also polished the whole knife to a bright finnish.

 

RD

 

Hello Doyler.

You are correct, the sheath is not a WESTERN product. As per one of my earlier posts it was made custom for the knife, after my gf picked it up in '44.

[doyler]

Hello Doyler.

You are correct, the sheath is not a WESTERN product. As per one of my earlier posts it was made custom for the knife, after my gf picked it up in '44.

 

 

GM

 

Great looking scabbard.I knew a Para Marine who had obtained a Collins V44.He didnt like the thin scabbard that came with it so he had one made out of a heavier leather.

 

Here are a couple of my Westerns.One has some faint markings on the scabbard.I could barely make out a 3rd Div on the front.The owner had scratched out the writing on the back.I purchased it from a man who got it at an estate auction and he knew the man had served in the Navy.Im thinking the veteran had put his division of his ship on the scabbard.

[GMPETE]

Nice group Doyler-

 

Greaser-

Check out this photo.....Marshall Islands '44. As you said.

Don't know if you can make it out Doyler, but the sheath is marked with the 4th MarDiv insignia.

Page 105 US Marines in WWII: Tarawa and the Marshalls, Eric Hammel

[doyler]

Great picture.

 

RD