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Post Vietnam Camouflage (Pre BDU)


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Just caught up with this thread after being away from this forum for quite some time.

 

I retired just a few years ago after more then 26 years in the Army, almost all of if in SF (graduated the SFQC in APR '79). I only say that, because I'm seeing alot of these "SF rip-stop cammie" uniforms on the collector's market, and I think you guys deserve to hear first-hand, as it were, the real deal on these.

 

Although saying "never" is a sure bet to have someone shove a legit exception in your face, I recommend VERY strong suspicion for any rip-stop cammie uniform (slant pocket or straight pocket) that has the Special Forces tab sewn on it. The tab was not authorized until several years after the BDU was introduced as the Army wide standard uniform. By that time, all of the SF group CIF's were issuing BDU uniforms for field wear, not rip-stop cammies of any description (to include TIGER STRIPES!!! My God!).

 

I still have a duffle bag full of rip-stop cammies that were immediately out of date when this happened and were then NOT authorized for any wear (field or garrison) after the general issue of BDU's by the group CIF. This occured in about 1981-82. Yes, there was a transition / wear-out period for the rip-stop uniform, but it was very brief and was long over before the SF tab was authorized (ca. 1984-5).

 

As for stories about clandestine operations where guys were wearing whatever they could find: BS! Such operations were, are and always will be some of the best funded programs in the entire DoD. I promise you there were no black ops teams running around anywhere in the mid-80's in trashed out uniforms that were CIF rejects and foder for DRMO. Yes, such ops might have happened, but the guys would have been wearing BDU's, sterile or with just name tapes and US Army. Other possibilities do exist for this posibility, but, again, I assure you, it would not have been rip-stop cammies with insignia sew on.

 

In my experience, I NEVER saw a rip-stop uniform with an SF tab on it. And I can well remember the rump chewings that many of us got from the Company SGMs and Battalion CSMs for just wearing cammies when we should have already been in BDUs. When the cammie went out of the system, they went pretty damn quick.

 

HTH

 

Mike

"Hope is not a course of action." Sean P. Kelly, SSG, 1st US Ranger Battalion

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I've always wondered about this tiger stripe uniform I picked up at a thrift store many years ago.

 

It should be noted that the tiger stripe shirt in the post was a non-contract item made by Tiger Stripe Products of St Louis, a company that got some patent protection on that pattern and sold to only the commercial market. They were regular vendors at the surplus ASD show for years.

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Just picked up two interesting coats- one, a VERY late ERDL camouflage jacket dated 1981 (must have been right before the M81 woodland pattern was established), and an early 1982 pair of woodland BDUs. I'll get some pics up shortly.

 

EDIT: Actually, the tag for the late ERDL coat looks a lot like the one on the testing coat posted by USMC Collector. I'll check it out.

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Just caught up with this thread after being away from this forum for quite some time.

 

I retired just a few years ago after more then 26 years in the Army, almost all of if in SF (graduated the SFQC in APR '79). I only say that, because I'm seeing alot of these "SF rip-stop cammie" uniforms on the collector's market, and I think you guys deserve to hear first-hand, as it were, the real deal on these.

 

Although saying "never" is a sure bet to have someone shove a legit exception in your face, I recommend VERY strong suspicion for any rip-stop cammie uniform (slant pocket or straight pocket) that has the Special Forces tab sewn on it. The tab was not authorized until several years after the BDU was introduced as the Army wide standard uniform. By that time, all of the SF group CIF's were issuing BDU uniforms for field wear, not rip-stop cammies of any description (to include TIGER STRIPES!!! My God!).

 

I still have a duffle bag full of rip-stop cammies that were immediately out of date when this happened and were then NOT authorized for any wear (field or garrison) after the general issue of BDU's by the group CIF. This occured in about 1981-82. Yes, there was a transition / wear-out period for the rip-stop uniform, but it was very brief and was long over before the SF tab was authorized (ca. 1984-5).

 

As for stories about clandestine operations where guys were wearing whatever they could find: BS! Such operations were, are and always will be some of the best funded programs in the entire DoD. I promise you there were no black ops teams running around anywhere in the mid-80's in trashed out uniforms that were CIF rejects and foder for DRMO. Yes, such ops might have happened, but the guys would have been wearing BDU's, sterile or with just name tapes and US Army. Other possibilities do exist for this posibility, but, again, I assure you, it would not have been rip-stop cammies with insignia sew on.

 

In my experience, I NEVER saw a rip-stop uniform with an SF tab on it. And I can well remember the rump chewings that many of us got from the Company SGMs and Battalion CSMs for just wearing cammies when we should have already been in BDUs. When the cammie went out of the system, they went pretty damn quick.

 

HTH

 

Mike

 

Great comments! Thanks for adding to the discussion.

 

I agree that collectors should be skeptical of any pre-BDU uniform that shows up with a SPECIAL FORCES qualifcation tab. It would have been a very narrow time frame that this would have been worn before the BDU's became standard issue.

 

According to the US Army Institute of Heraldry, the Special Forces qualification tab was authorized for wear June 1983, with a metal version being authorized on November 1984. Please see the following link:

 

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Tab/SpecialForcesTab.htm

 

As for the issue date of the BDU: "The temperate camouflage battle dress uniform (BDU) was introduced as the Army's field and garrison uniform on 1 October 1981." per the following website:

 

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_soldiers_clothing_bdu.php

 

Going strictly by the regs, the overlap period for this tab and the older uniforms would only be a couple years at best. At least this will help collectors date the examples they find.

 

As for the BDU's, although authorized, it took awhile for them to be fully available in the field. My best memory is that I got my first BDU's from Clothing Sales in Europe during the summer of 1982. While the troops were transitioning, it was not unusual to see formations formed up with everyone who owned BDU's in the front ranks, and those wearing the old OG-107's in the back.

 

Keep in mind, this is the Temperate BDU. When it was first issued, it was touted as an "all weather uniform" suitable for most theaters. Even in Europe, most soldiers found it to be warm to wear compared to the OG-107's, and there were a lot of complaints. In a hot weather climate, the Temperate BDU was darned hot. This point was driven home when we invaded Grenada in October 1983. Many of our highly trained and physically fit soldiers ended up facing heat exhaustion after running around in the Temperate BDU in tropical heat. While the battle was ongoing, the logistics wizards at the Pentagon rushed emergancy supplies of OD jungle fatigues to the troops in the field. You can see these being worn in photos later in the campaign.

 

Using the Internet, I could not find the date when the first version of the Hot Weather BDU was adapted. This was the successor to the "Hot Weather Coat" and other items we have been identifying as Jungle Fatigues. My best recollection is that the HWBDU was put into widespread issue a good two years after the Temperate BDU. I believe in hot weather areas (Korea, Panama) the older 1970's and 1980's camouflage patterns continued to be worn until the HWBDU was fully fielded. I know I remember seeing USAF Security Police wearing the older patterns in Korea in the late 1980's.

 

As an aside, after Grenada, the Army released remaining stocks of Vietnam era OG-107 Jungle Fatigues for use by soldiers in hot weather areas. This explains a large number of lightly used jungle fatigues showing up with fully embroidered subdued 1st CAV, 2nd Armored and National Guard patches. These were worn in the late 1980's by troops at Ft. Hood and Ft. Polk. They may also have been worn by some troops of the 25th ID in Hawaii. These have proved to be a point of confusion for many Vietnam collectors.

 

The camouflaged uniforms that I included in this thread were picked up between 1984 and 1992. At the time I was one of the few collectors focused on post WWII field uniforms. Mike is right about one thing... there were darn few of the camouflaged ones that showed up with ANY insignia, let alone Special Forces tabs. In the eight years I was collecting, these were the only examples that I came up with. I did not keep specific notes, but a a couple of these came out of the thrift shop at Schofield Barracks. Others came from Goodwill and Salvation Army in Hawaii, or the local swap meet.

 

I will say one thing I think we will all find amusing... I have seen less than accurate pieced togther "Vietnam era" OD Jungle Fatigues with a COLOR Special Forces tab on the left shoulder, right above a matching Airborne tab and SF Arrowhead. This is majorly wrong.

 

As for the Tiger Stripe shirt that was shown in this thread... my comments were speculation. Mike's comments about uniforms worn during the drug wars make sense. However, this item looks just a bit too sharp to be the work of a repro artist. It just makes me wonder if there is more to the story.

 

One possible explanation: the same Institute of Heraldry page notes that the tab can be worn by veterans with a 120 days of SF service in Vietnam who also earned a CIB or CMB. Perhaps the best possibility for this uniform is that it is a reunion or vet's parade item. If so, I feel that it also has a place in our nation's memory and has a value.

 

As far as whether SF guys would ever wear anything that was unauthorized or non-standard.... come on, there is a whole history of this dated back from Duck Hunter camouflage ordered from Sears catalogs during the early Vietnam War to whatever those outfits they are wearing in Afghanistan today. I'll concede the point about the teams operating during the drug wars. But I am willing to bet there were a few other unauthorized uniforms worn by our SF troops over the intervening years, especially when they were "far from the flagpole".

 

Good discussion. Not enough has been written about this period. There was a time I think I was the only one collecting this stuff!

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Gil Burket
Omaha, NE
Specializing in Fakes and Reproductions
of the Vietnam War

burkcats@hotmail.com

 

"One is easily fooled by that which one loves."

 

Moliere: Tartuffe

 

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I have a follow-on question about the wear of the SF tab on non-bdu fatigues. What about the SF reserve units? When were they issued the BDUs? The reserves are usually slower to receive the most recent issue uniforms. Priority of the issue of the BDUs went to active duty first and then the USAR. Also would the wear out date be different for a reservist? Would it have been likely for a reservist to have worn a SF tab on his pre-BDU camoluflage shirt?

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I have a follow-on question about the wear of the SF tab on non-bdu fatigues. What about the SF reserve units? When were they issued the BDUs? The reserves are usually slower to receive the most recent issue uniforms. Priority of the issue of the BDUs went to active duty first and then the USAR. Also would the wear out date be different for a reservist? Would it have been likely for a reservist to have worn a SF tab on his pre-BDU camoluflage shirt?

 

Good questions.

 

I was looking on the web for older copies for AR 670-1 Wear and Appearance of

Army Uniforms and Insignia. It is the primary reference for what is authorized for wear.

 

As one website noted the regulation is constantly being updated about once every two years or so. The oldest I could find on the web was a 1991 version, which doesn't help this discussion much.

 

I believe all of the SF units other than those on Active Duty are assigned to the Army Reserve. As such they would be subject to the same regulation. National Guard units, on the other hand, may at times be subject to ammended regulations issued by their state.

 

As to whether SF Reservists can wear the tab, I am assuming the answer would be yes. Again per the website for the Army Institute of Heraldry:

 

4. Award Eligibility:

 

a. Basic Eligibility Criteria. Any person meeting one of the criteria below may be awarded the Special Forces (SF) tab:

 

(1) Successful completion of U.S. Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School (USAJFKSWCS) approved Active Army (AA) institutional training leading to SF qualification.

 

(2) Successful completion of a USAJFKSWCS approved Reserve Component (RC) SF qualification program.

 

(3) Successful completion of an authorized unit administered SF qualification program.

 

Please see

 

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Tab/SpecialForcesTab.htm

 

I do not know when Reserve SF units had BDU's available to them. But keep in mind, just because they were Reservists it does not mean they had a low priority for new equipment. Equipment, uniforms, etc. are made available to units, both Active and Reserve, based on their assigned mission, readiness and deployment availability. I am willing to be many of the Reserve SF units had BDU's available before many of the more mundane Active Duty units. As I said in my previous post, it took a good 8 to 10 months for them to become fully available in Europe.

 

As far as wear out dates, they are usually pretty generous. Something in the back of my head says 2 to 6 years. Sometimes this is extended if the new items are not produced fast enough to keep up with demand. The new Advanced Combat Uniform began production in 2002, but the wear out date for was first set for 2008 and now may be as late as December 2009. Part of this is to exhaust the stocks of clothing that the DoD paid good money for, and the other is not to cause undue cost to the GI's who had to pay for their uniforms.

 

One last note: keep in mind that local commands, such as US Forces Korea or US Army Europe may also establish local regulations. This is based on availability of supply and resupply, and also the adaptation of equipment and uniforms to local conditions. A shining example was when US Army Vietnam began authorizing subdued unit insignia almost a full year before they were adapted Army wide.

 

I still agree with the basic point that one should look twice at a pre-BDU camo uniform that has a Special Forces tab sewn to it. It would be a very easy "upgrade". But if this has been done, there are usually other signs that the uniform has been doctored.

 

I hope this answered what you were asking.

Gil Burket
Omaha, NE
Specializing in Fakes and Reproductions
of the Vietnam War

burkcats@hotmail.com

 

"One is easily fooled by that which one loves."

 

Moliere: Tartuffe

 

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Like I said, never say never; as soon as you do, someone will find the one legit exception for you...

 

However, my comments were strictly in reference to the SF qualification tab on the pre-BDU cammo uniforms for guys in SF units.

 

As gwb123 points out, the BDU temperate weight uniform was introduced in 1981 and the SF tab in 1983. I know that long before 1883, all the active duty SF units were required to wear the BDU (both in garrison and in the field). The pre-BDU cammie uniforms were taken in for DX by the unit CIF's in exchange for BDUs. It was a "significant emotional event" when the law was laid down.

 

Because in SF units, the pre-BDU cammo uniform was a CIF issue item (intended for wear in the field, but authorized by the Group Commanders for garrison wear), there was no AR or DA specified wear-out date or official "over-lap" period. When the groups got the BDUs for issue by the CIFs, the old cammies were out, BDUs were in. This didn't happen until the hot weather BDU was introduced, though. I don't remember exactly when that was, but I do know it was before the end of 1982.

 

So, there was at least a one year interval between the end of the pre-BDU cammies (in the active SF groups) and the authorization and introduction of the SF qualification tab. This also applies to all the active groups and the few OCONUS forward battalions and seperate companies.

 

How other units and MACOMs handled the transition from pre-BDU cammies to BDUs is for someone else to say. I can only speak to what I was involved in.

"Hope is not a course of action." Sean P. Kelly, SSG, 1st US Ranger Battalion

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(Sorry. Here's the rest of the post. Server punked out on me and I had to go through the whole reconnect rigamarol.)

 

.... What was going on with the 25th ID, 82nd ABN, etc at the time was transparent to me.

 

BEAST does bring up what might be, in my opinion, the one significant exception to this, the SF Reserve and National Guard units. I cannot address this either. I simply don't recall if I ever saw or noticed what any of the Guard or Reserve SF guys were wearing at the time. I also think it was possible that the 7th Group guys down in Panama at the time were wearing OG-107s in addition to the pre-BDU cammies. Finally, SF guys (almost exclusively commisioned officers, BTW) who transfered from SF to conventional units which took longer to switch over from pre-BDU cammies to BDUs might well have had a time period where they could have worn the SF tab on their pre-BDU cammie uniforms (but remember, these uniforms would not have SF unit patches on them).

 

As for the entire issue of "unauthorized" uniforms worn away from the flagpole, there is some legitimacy to the posibility. However, any such exceptions without darn good, back-stopped provenance are probably BS. I have desert BDUs that I wore in OIF that have the lower shirt pockets moved to the shoulders, but then so did just about every other guy in 5th Group (along with all the USAF TACPs with us) (the GSC rigger section did most of the sewing). But there are probably a thousand photos to back that up, as well as the various baseball hats that we wore there and in Afganistan.

 

However, again, these exceptions are very rare and should be backed up with some proof, or a collector is just throwing his money away. No amount of examination of such "uniforms" can ever establish their legitimacy without such proof.

"Hope is not a course of action." Sean P. Kelly, SSG, 1st US Ranger Battalion

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Guys, I have had these two jackets in my collection for 10 years or so. I picked these up in a little surplus shop in St. George, Utah. The owner was a real nice guy, but he was a patch ripper! If you found any of his uniforms with patches, then you were very lucky. I bought both of these jackets for $20 bucks a piece. They are both heavily starched and the pants for the camo set have to safety pinned together to keep them from falling off the hanger. As you can see the jungle jacket has Phillipine master jump wings on the right breast. On the left breast it has the Expert Infantryman's Badge, US master jump wings, and a US Army name tape. On the left sleeve is the Special Forces patch along with the Special Forces and Airborne tabs

The camo set is very similarily badged. The only difference is the foreign jump wings which are South Korean. This set also has the Special Forces patch, Airborne tab, and Special Forces tab. I believe these might have belonged to a prominet lawyer in the St. George area who was in the 19th Group, which is staioned out of Draper, Utah. This is the ONLY pre-BDU uniform I have ever seen with the Special Forces tab. Is it real? I think so. It looks legit to me.

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Always looking for US and foreign militaria from the Central American wars circa 1970-1990

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You might not be able to see it in the pre-BDU photos, but there has been a name tape removed.

Always looking for US and foreign militaria from the Central American wars circa 1970-1990

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Guys, I have had these two jackets in my collection for 10 years or so. I picked these up in a little surplus shop in St. George, Utah. The owner was a real nice guy, but he was a patch ripper! If you found any of his uniforms with patches, then you were very lucky. I bought both of these jackets for $20 bucks a piece. They are both heavily starched and the pants for the camo set have to safety pinned together to keep them from falling off the hanger. As you can see the jungle jacket has Phillipine master jump wings on the right breast. On the left breast it has the Expert Infantryman's Badge, US master jump wings, and a US Army name tape. On the left sleeve is the Special Forces patch along with the Special Forces and Airborne tabs

The camo set is very similarily badged. The only difference is the foreign jump wings which are South Korean. This set also has the Special Forces patch, Airborne tab, and Special Forces tab. I believe these might have belonged to a prominet lawyer in the St. George area who was in the 19th Group, which is staioned out of Draper, Utah. This is the ONLY pre-BDU uniform I have ever seen with the Special Forces tab. Is it real? I think so. It looks legit to me.

 

 

From the photos they look pretty good.

 

First of all, surplus stores are normally not in the habit of putting together uniforms. As you noted, it is normally just the opposite. There is just something about the business that makes them all just too eager to strip off the patches of whatever comes into their shop. I had a talk with a lady who owned one shop, and she looked at me in surprise. "Who'd want to own a shirt with somebody else's name on it?"

 

In some places I was charming and convincing enough to convince the owner to hold anything that came in with patches until I had a chance to look at it, with the promise that I would pay their price for it (or better, it was really something significant.) One store even found they had a market with kids and teenagers for badged shirts, so they started leaving them alone.

 

Surplus stores generally have two sources for their clothing. Much of it is bought through surplus channels through what has been known as Defense Property Disposal or DRMO (Defense Reutilization and Marketing Office). Prior to Desert Storm, this source was actually dwindling. In recent years DRMO placed an emphasis on "demilitarizing" clothing items, which meant stripping patches. I've been told they used to provide summer jobs for dependents whose sole duty was to go through stacks of exchanged clothing and remove patches.

 

The other source for surplus stores is veterans and soldiers cleaning out their closets. In this case, sometimes you find stuff in pretty good shape. If I understand your comments, these two uniforms probably came from the same individual. Unfortunately, vets tend to strip their nametapes off of uniforms they are disposing of.

 

With these two, this makes a logical progression... an older OG-107 jungle fatigue with a Captain or Lieutenant's bar, and then a camo uniform with a Major's rank. This is a good sign and it makes sense, especially if everything looks to them being owned by the same person. And it sounds like you might actually have an ID on the original owner.

 

With any uniform that you pick up from a "third party source", there are some general guidelines to follow if you are trying to decide if it is a put together or an original item.

 

Patches that have been worn on a uniform, no matter how well made, will show the effects of laundering. With shrinking, ironing, or starching, they also affect the fabric they are sewn to. Always turn the uniform inside out and ask "Does this patch look like it has been here for awhile? Is it pressed into the fabric, especially on a used item? Or does it look like a recent addition, just on the surface of the fabric? Used patches should leave a press mark that is a shadow of the patch.

 

If you can lift up the corner of the patch, does it look like the material below has a "shadow" of darker color. All uniforms fade over time due to sunlight and laundering. The patches block this fading.

 

Look at the patch. Does it look like it was sewn one time, or has it been sewn a second time? This is not a fatal flaw, as sometimes troops moved patches from uniform to another, but it can be an indicator.

 

Do all of the patches look like they were sewn on at the same time? Again, not an absoulte. As soldiers earn qualifications, they may add tabs or jump wings to an existing uniform. But if you see a very basic set of patches, such as name, US Army tape, and rank done in one thread, and then all of the qualificaiton badges, combat patches, foreign wings, etc. done with another thread this could be an indicator of a problem.

 

And finally, do the patches look brand new while the uniform looks used? You had some cases of "reissued" uniforms, but it is a reason to take a second look.

 

I agree that caution should be applied when picking up undocumented uniforms, especially from an auction. A skilled hand can go to a surplus shop, pick up a used shirt and a handful of patches and put together something fairly convincing. But it has also been my experience that something that has been heavily worn and used will have a certain weathered look to it that is very hard to duplicate.

Gil Burket
Omaha, NE
Specializing in Fakes and Reproductions
of the Vietnam War

burkcats@hotmail.com

 

"One is easily fooled by that which one loves."

 

Moliere: Tartuffe

 

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Again this not an absolute positve, but in my estimation, if someone would take the time to put together a uniform like this, they'd probably put on a Combat Infantryman's Badge and not an Expert Infantryman's Badge.

From what I understood, these uniforms came in together and were brought in by the vet to trade on some other hunting type items. You can't see it in the pics, but if you look at the imprints left on the fabric from the name tapes, the last names match up perfectly.

Always looking for US and foreign militaria from the Central American wars circa 1970-1990

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Again this not an absolute positve, but in my estimation, if someone would take the time to put together a uniform like this, they'd probably put on a Combat Infantryman's Badge and not an Expert Infantryman's Badge.

From what I understood, these uniforms came in together and were brought in by the vet to trade on some other hunting type items. You can't see it in the pics, but if you look at the imprints left on the fabric from the name tapes, the last names match up perfectly.

 

Sounds good. I think you have a winner.

 

And I agree... a CIB would be more likely on a doctored uniform.

Gil Burket
Omaha, NE
Specializing in Fakes and Reproductions
of the Vietnam War

burkcats@hotmail.com

 

"One is easily fooled by that which one loves."

 

Moliere: Tartuffe

 

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if it helps the discusion, I was in the 82nd from nov. 79 to may 86, and wore the slant pocket and straight pocket versions, the pants for both types could be mixed and the woodland (dark) and jungle (light) colours could be mixed without any concern. the slant pockets were more desirable to me and if I didn't get lucky in supply I would go to a surplus store and find a decent set although you could only find used ones. in the 82nd the only insignia authorized was rank (sew on for e-4 and above) and the 82nd abn. patch,no wings or combat insignia ect., when the BDU's came out in 1982 the old uniforms were still worn but all authorized patches had to be sewn on and the sleeves had to be rolled stove pipe style. cold weather BDU's were worn in Grenada and there were alot of heat casualty's, we soon recieved brand new V.N. era jungle fatigues and they were then issued for summer wear when we got back, you could also buy brand new sets at clothing sales for $8.00 brad k.

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if it helps the discusion, I was in the 82nd from nov. 79 to may 86, and wore the slant pocket and straight pocket versions, the pants for both types could be mixed and the woodland (dark) and jungle (light) colours could be mixed without any concern. the slant pockets were more desirable to me and if I didn't get lucky in supply I would go to a surplus store and find a decent set although you could only find used ones. in the 82nd the only insignia authorized was rank (sew on for e-4 and above) and the 82nd abn. patch,no wings or combat insignia ect., when the BDU's came out in 1982 the old uniforms were still worn but all authorized patches had to be sewn on and the sleeves had to be rolled stove pipe style. cold weather BDU's were worn in Grenada and there were alot of heat casualty's, we soon recieved brand new V.N. era jungle fatigues and they were then issued for summer wear when we got back, you could also buy brand new sets at clothing sales for $8.00 brad k.

 

Seven years in the 82nd Abn? Jeez... I salute you!

 

Thanks for the input. I had heard of troops buying camo fatigues from surplus stores during that time period, but yours is the first documented example. Its interesting that they limited the insignia to be sewn on them.

 

Also thanks for verifying the story about the Temperate BDU's at Grenada. I remember when the first ones came out, the dyes used for the camo print was particularly heavy... it was touted to reduce the IR Infra-Red signature. Considering they were also supposed to be machine washable, I'm not sure how long that characteristic lasted. In any case that dense dye job had the unfortunate side effect of helping to lock in body heat. You could tell the difference after washing them a couple of times.

Gil Burket
Omaha, NE
Specializing in Fakes and Reproductions
of the Vietnam War

burkcats@hotmail.com

 

"One is easily fooled by that which one loves."

 

Moliere: Tartuffe

 

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another thing I remember about those camy's is that the green field jacket's were not authorized to be worn with them, so everybody had at least one oversize shirt so they could (believe it or not), wear a field jacket or field jacket liner underneath it when we had to wear them during cold weather. brad k.

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another thing I remember about those camy's is that the green field jacket's were not authorized to be worn with them, so everybody had at least one oversize shirt so they could (believe it or not), wear a field jacket or field jacket liner underneath it when we had to wear them during cold weather. brad k.

 

Typical Army logic! And a perfect GI solution!

 

We had similar issues when the BDU's were first fielded. The basic uniforms were available, but not everyone in Europe could get a matching field jacket. So we had people running around with an OD green field jacket and BDU camo trousers. The uniform police had a fit over that one. For formal formations, we sometimes had folks standing out there in BDU's without the benefit of a field jacket to avoid the color contrast!

Gil Burket
Omaha, NE
Specializing in Fakes and Reproductions
of the Vietnam War

burkcats@hotmail.com

 

"One is easily fooled by that which one loves."

 

Moliere: Tartuffe

 

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  • 6 months later...

RDF trousers, 1978 date, unworn, new from stock, Medium Regular. Main time period of use 1977-1984, than continuously replaced by woodland bdu. JAROSLAV

 

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Mr. Jaroslav Jochman
3/6 Marines, King Co., Re-Enacted, 1943-1945;
USMC & USN REENACTORS ASSOCIATION
MARINE CORPS ASSOCIATION FOUNDATION MEMBER

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  • 3 years later...
if it helps the discusion, I was in the 82nd from nov. 79 to may 86, and wore the slant pocket and straight pocket versions, the pants for both types could be mixed and the woodland (dark) and jungle (light) colours could be mixed without any concern. the slant pockets were more desirable to me and if I didn't get lucky in supply I would go to a surplus store and find a decent set although you could only find used ones. in the 82nd the only insignia authorized was rank (sew on for e-4 and above) and the 82nd abn. patch,no wings or combat insignia ect., when the BDU's came out in 1982 the old uniforms were still worn but all authorized patches had to be sewn on and the sleeves had to be rolled stove pipe style. cold weather BDU's were worn in Grenada and there were alot of heat casualty's, we soon recieved brand new V.N. era jungle fatigues and they were then issued for summer wear when we got back, you could also buy brand new sets at clothing sales for $8.00 brad k.

 

 

Would you care to contact me off line? I've got an 82nd question from that era that may not be directly associated with this threat but you may be able to help me with.

Be well,

 

Chad C. Rogers

Retired Army

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