Post Vietnam Camouflage (Pre BDU)

[gwb123]

This topic has been covered by another thread that is currently in the Reference section.

 

During the 1990's I searched out examples of Post Vietnam camouflage. This generally fell into two catagories:

 

Vietnam era ERDL uniforms: Some of these were simply uniforms that had been issued to soldiers during the conflict, and then "recycled" on future assignments. Some of them appear to be stock that was issued to units on special assignment or in exotic locales, like Panama. I remember hearing stories of veterans who would actually go down to surplus shops to pick up a set of "cammies" for that super cool "I've been there" look.

 

"Square Pocket" Jungle Fatigues: I have to apologize as I have mislaid my technical notes on these. As I recall they were issued from about 1974 until the BDU's were standardized in the 1980's. As noted in the previous thread the print patterns were very similar to the ERDL fatigues. Many collectors have noted a "green dominant" and "brown dominant" variation. The pockets are actually rectangular with squared off edges, as opposed to the rounded ones of the Vietnam era. They also feature a very large and hard to miss clothing care tag centered in the collar which is probably a good 5 to 6 inches long, often white in color.

 

As noted previously, these were standard issue in the USMC. As for the US Army, they were seen with Special Forces units on remote assignment. The USAF used them for their Security Police overseas (Korea).

 

Interestingly many of the "Square Pocket" Jungle Fatigues are sometimes mistaken and sold for Vietnam era fatigues.

 

It should be noted that during this period just about every other US ally had issued their forces camouflaged fatigues. If one was fortunate enough to attend a joint training exercise, there was feeling for the US troops to feel a bit underdressed when standing next to their British, French or Dutch counterparts. Some of these uniforms were worn "just to keep up with the neighbors."

 

Camouflage fatigues were also often worn by training school cadre to set themselves apart from the trainees.

 

A couple of examples:

 

1) ERDL Major's uniform featuring German jump wings, Pathfinder badge, Master Parachute wings. There is a shadow of an Infantry School patch on the sleeve. This appears to be a brown dominant pattern.

[gwb123]

2) ERDL for an Enlisted Man attached to the 193rd Infantry Bde. in Panama. This had holes in the collar indicating metal rank insignia had been worn. The name tag is block printed on a nylon strip.

[gwb123]

3) Square Pocket Jungle Fatigue with direct embroidery. CIB, Master Jump wings, and a Canadian jump wing over the right pocket. The Special Forces tab is present, but it appears the Arrowhead was never sewn on. There is also no sign of a "combat patch" on the right shoulder. The direct embroidered insignia would have orginally been done in black. However, the dye in the thread has faded to a gunmetal gray. This is typical of many Asian dyes. The embroidery very well may have been done in Korea.

[gwb123]

4) Square Pocket Jungle Fatigue for a Lt. Col. assigned to the Joint Chiefs Signal Element in Korea. The unit patch is local made, everything else appears to be standard US made. It is interesting to see a Signal Officer with a CIB. Very likely he was an Infantryman earlier in his career. As I recall, this example came out of the Thrift Shop at Schofield Barracks in the late 1980's.

[gwb123]

5) Square Pocket Jungle Fatigue Jacket: What a story this one tells! A career NCO with what appears to be an ARVN (South Vietnamese) EOD badge over the right pocket, along with a Senior Parachute wing and a second award of the CIB. The right shoulder shows a 101st ABN combat patch, while the left shows a SF tab and arrow head. Such soldiers did exist, but this uniform has not been verified. It is in pristine condition, showing what the camouflage uniform looked like before fading in the sun. Purchased through Manion's Auction during the late 1980's.

[gwb123]

6) A USAF Square Pocket Jungle Fatigue: Believe it or not, it took longer to come up with an Air Force example than it did to find one from the Army. I believe these were only worn in a limited number of places, Korea being one of them. This example has Korean made Name and USAF tapes. Note how the Airman's name has been translated into Korean on the name tape. The Security Police badge and specialty badge are also Korean made, with the blue thread being just a shade brighter than the standard US issue. Note the large clothing care tag in the collar. As I recall, this turned up in a Goodwill or Salvation Army in Hawaii in the late 1980's. These were also have issued to Para Rescue and Combat Ground Control units.

[gwb123]

7a) Close up of the USAF SP Square Pocket Jungle Fatigue.

[Tonomachi]

I've always wondered about this tiger stripe uniform I picked up at a thrift store many years ago. When I first spotted it I was all excited by the "US - S" stamp just below the collar. I then found the Tiger Stripe Products tag indicating that this was a reproduction tiger stripe uniform made in 1985. I picked it up anyway as it was real cheap. The name tape is a little faded and worn just like the uniform but the stitching on the back shows that it was sewn on by hand. The service tape, basic paratrooper wing and shoulder patch are machine sewn on but does not show the wear and fading of the name tape. So could this be a reunion piece of maybe for a reenactor? I don't think a SF trooper would have been allowed to wear this in 1985 or was this tolerated?

 

Dennis

[Tonomachi]

A close up of the name and service tape

[atb]

On your post #5-- Is there an AIRBORNE tab above the Special Forces SSI or just a SPECIAL FORCES tab? The SF tab is a symbol of qualification and can be worn by itself to show SF qualification. The SF SSI has to have an AIRBORNE tab as part of it to be complete. That uniform shirt may have had the insignia added to that shoulder to "jazz" it up.

[SARGE]

7a) Close up of the USAF SP Square Pocket Jungle Fatigue.

 

 

Gil,

 

A wonderful example of a USAF SP camo coat.

 

I love the translated name tag! The Korean made insignia is super and very well made. Here is the later US version of the subdued Police Badge and branch tape for comparison.

 

[gwb123]

On your post #5-- Is there an AIRBORNE tab above the Special Forces SSI or just a SPECIAL FORCES tab? The SF tab is a symbol of qualification and can be worn by itself to show SF qualification. The SF SSI has to have an AIRBORNE tab as part of it to be complete. That uniform shirt may have had the insignia added to that shoulder to "jazz" it up.

 

Thanks for your reply. Looking at the original photo, the uniform has an Airborne tab over the SF Arrowhead. So in that sense it is correct.

 

Uniforms that are "jazzed up" normally have some telling flaw, the kind of gaff that you are referring to.

 

What gave this uniform credibility was all of the insignia were placed exactly by regulaton. Everything was neat and trim, and this had all of the hallmarks of having been done by a professional tailor. Sewing insignia on a uniform is not as easy as it looks, and a lot of fakes have a very uneven look. This was done by a shop. The uniform was also professionally pressed and dry cleaned, as you would expect for a career soldier.

 

The other thing that tends to give this uniform credibility is that it was very inexpensive. I think my winning bid was $19.

 

If someone had been looking to make a fake, why use a 1970's pattern uniform? There were plenty of ERDL and regular jungle fatigues around.

 

The thing that bothers me is the ARVN badge. By the references I have, this is an EOD badge, which would have been unusual for a career infantry man. One possibility is that the tailor shop got it mixed up. I would have expected to see an ARVN Ranger or Infantry badge instead.

 

I parted with my uniform collection several years ago, and before I improved my photo skills. I wish had more shots to share of this one, as I always wondered about it.

[gwb123]

Gil,

 

A wonderful example of a USAF SP camo coat.

 

I love the translated name tag! The Korean made insignia is super and very well made. Here is the later US version of the subdued Police Badge and branch tape for comparison.

 

 

Thanks for the photo. I don't know about current practice, but back in the 70's and 80's I remember both US Army and USAF personnel wearing translated nametapes even after they rotated back to the states. Part of it was economics.... those things cost money and why waste them? But I think for some it was a subtle way of saying "I've been there". I remember personally seeing tapes translated into Japanese, Korean, and Thai. I've seen photos of Vietnam era tapes with names translated into Vietnamese. There was a time that you could find these in the nickel and dime box at your local surplus store and for awhile I had a collection going. For one thing, it gave you a clue about what the local embroidery looked like.

[gwb123]

I've always wondered about this tiger stripe uniform I picked up at a thrift store many years ago. When I first spotted it I was all excited by the "US - S" stamp just below the collar. I then found the Tiger Stripe Products tag indicating that this was a reproduction tiger stripe uniform made in 1985. I picked it up anyway as it was real cheap. The name tape is a little faded and worn just like the uniform but the stitching on the back shows that it was sewn on by hand. The service tape, basic paratrooper wing and shoulder patch are machine sewn on but does not show the wear and fading of the name tape. So could this be a reunion piece of maybe for a reenactor? I don't think a SF trooper would have been allowed to wear this in 1985 or was this tolerated?

 

Dennis

 

Dennis,

 

I think there are two possibilities on this, and both of them are good.

 

It could be a reunion or parade uniform. I have several examples of reunion uniforms that popped up in the 1980's. This coincided with the completion of the Vietnam Memorial, and America finally recognizing it's Vietnam Vets. Many veterans put together fatigue jackets using all sorts of combinations of insignia. At first I thought these were fantasy items or Halloween costumes. But the more I looked at them, the more I realize they had been put together with some measure of thought and care. I also attended the dedication of the Texas Vietnam Memorial in the 1990's. You saw everything there ranging from regulation uniforms or parts thereof, flight jackets to biker jackets.

 

Having said that, I would discount that possiblility for two reasons. One is the Special Forces qualifcation tab. This was not authorized until well after the Vietnam War, and does not fit the period. The other is many vets (not all) tended to put their unit patch on the right shoulder, as a "combat patch". Many reunion uniforms also tended to have additional items tacked onto them, such as unit crests, novelty patches, POW/MIA etc.

 

I don't think this is a reenactor piece again because most reenactors would know not to add the Special Forces tab to a Vietnam era piece.

 

Okay.... so here's my thought. In the 80's and 90's, before 911, our SF guys were TDY all around the world. There were clandestine operations that are classified to this day. A good part of this was the War on Drugs. There were also training and exchange missions with countries ranging from Thailand, the Philippines, Korea, Taiwan, and most of Central America. I am sure that I have seen photos of some of our troops in non-regulation uniforms. As the saying goes, the further you are from the flag pole (ie. headquarters) the looser the regulations become.

 

I think what you have is a 1980's or 1990's piece worn by an SF soldier in the field. While we had some camouflage uniforms available in the supply system, the supply system was not always fast or efficient in providing non-standard items. You also had some troops that wore non-standard uniforms by choice. I mean, come on, Tiger Stripes are just cool compared to our standard patterns. And if you were operating in Asia, they also matched the local climate and vegetation. And if you were TDY to one of these locations, the last thing you would want to do is show up wearing plain OG-107 fatigues when all the locals are running around in every exotic pattern of cammo imaginable.

 

While I am thinking about it, another possibility is this may have been someone's OPFOR (Opposing Forces) uniform. SF troops often serve as an opposing force during military exercises, and this is sometimes the opportunity to dress in a nonstandard uniform. Of course, this would only be accepted if the soldier wearing it was actually assigned to Special Forces. One thing the Army does not tolerate is wearing badges and insignia you have not earned or that do not reflect your assignment.

 

If you find copies of Soldier of Fortune magazine from the period you might want to page through them and see if you spot something like this.

 

In sum... I think you have a good item. The problem is properly placing it in its context. You might also want to contact the collector's organization Chute and Dagger which specialized in information on modern elite forces.

 

Hope this helps!

[Tonomachi]

Dennis,

 

I think there are two possibilities on this, and both of them are good.

 

It could be a reunion or parade uniform. I have several examples of reunion uniforms that popped up in the 1980's. This coincided with the completion of the Vietnam Memorial, and America finally recognizing it's Vietnam Vets. Many veterans put together fatigue jackets using all sorts of combinations of insignia. At first I thought these were fantasy items or Halloween costumes. But the more I looked at them, the more I realize they had been put together with some measure of thought and care. I also attended the dedication of the Texas Vietnam Memorial in the 1990's. You saw everything there ranging from regulation uniforms or parts thereof, flight jackets to biker jackets.

 

Having said that, I would discount that possiblility for two reasons. One is the Special Forces qualifcation tab. This was not authorized until well after the Vietnam War, and does not fit the period. The other is many vets (not all) tended to put their unit patch on the right shoulder, as a "combat patch". Many reunion uniforms also tended to have additional items tacked onto them, such as unit crests, novelty patches, POW/MIA etc.

 

I don't think this is a reenactor piece again because most reenactors would know not to add the Special Forces tab to a Vietnam era piece.

 

Okay.... so here's my thought. In the 80's and 90's, before 911, our SF guys were TDY all around the world. There were clandestine operations that are classified to this day. A good part of this was the War on Drugs. There were also training and exchange missions with countries ranging from Thailand, the Philippines, Korea, Taiwan, and most of Central America. I am sure that I have seen photos of some of our troops in non-regulation uniforms. As the saying goes, the further you are from the flag pole (ie. headquarters) the looser the regulations become.

 

I think what you have is a 1980's or 1990's piece worn by an SF soldier in the field. While we had some camouflage uniforms available in the supply system, the supply system was not always fast or efficient in providing non-standard items. You also had some troops that wore non-standard uniforms by choice. I mean, come on, Tiger Stripes are just cool compared to our standard patterns. And if you were operating in Asia, they also matched the local climate and vegetation. And if you were TDY to one of these locations, the last thing you would want to do is show up wearing plain OG-107 fatigues when all the locals are running around in every exotic pattern of cammo imaginable.

 

While I am thinking about it, another possibility is this may have been someone's OPFOR (Opposing Forces) uniform. SF troops often serve as an opposing force during military exercises, and this is sometimes the opportunity to dress in a nonstandard uniform. Of course, this would only be accepted if the soldier wearing it was actually assigned to Special Forces. One thing the Army does not tolerate is wearing badges and insignia you have not earned or that do not reflect your assignment.

 

If you find copies of Soldier of Fortune magazine from the period you might want to page through them and see if you spot something like this.

 

In sum... I think you have a good item. The problem is properly placing it in its context. You might also want to contact the collector's organization Chute and Dagger which specialized in information on modern elite forces.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Wow this forum is great! Thanks for the information.

Dennis

[Polygon]

Great BDUs, even though I've never had a fondness for woodland BDUs circa 81 and beyond, I do enjoy the intermediate post-Nam, pre-81 ERDL style camouflage.

[Bank Vault]

Great BDUs, even though I've never had a fondness for woodland BDUs circa 81 and beyond, I do enjoy the intermediate post-Nam, pre-81 ERDL style camouflage.

 

Woodland is one of the best camos for hiding . I am living proof of that!

[Bob Hudson]

Great BDUs, even though I've never had a fondness for woodland BDUs circa 81 and beyond, I do enjoy the intermediate post-Nam, pre-81 ERDL style camouflage.

 

I used to think that too, but some of the Army ones decked out with patches are pretty impressive. None of these cost more than $7 at thrift stores:

 

[Bob Hudson]

I put together a quickie side-by-side of the evolution from ERDL to woodland camo. The one big clue to the pre-75 ERDL is the slant pockets.

 

[gwb123]

I used to think that too, but some of the Army ones decked out with patches are pretty impressive. None of these cost more than $7 at thrift stores:

 

 

There's another thread going about the "direction of the hobby" and a discussion of what exists as a bargain today. I think OG-107 green fatigue shirts and post 1981 BDU's are the collectible that is being ignored... with some careful shopping you can build quite a collection. The same goes for the Desert Uniforms, which are also being discussed in another thread. I used to ask the guys at the surplus shops to hold them for me when they came in... it saved them from stripping the patches off! With the shift to Urban camo, digital camo, and reborn Tiger Stripes, the time is now to be buying up those BDU's we've all ignored!

[usmc-collector]

I send photos of some uniforms in my collection

 

1) RDF coat with straight divided pockets, made of late ERDL pattern camo fabric

 

2) RDF coat with straight divided pockets, made of classic RDF pattern camo fabric

 

3) RDF coat with straight divided pockets, made of WOODLAND pattern camo fabric (testing coat)

 

4) RDF coat with straight divided pockets, made of 6 COLOR DESERT pattern camo fabric (testing coat)

[usmc-collector]

5) RDF pants with straight divided pockets, made of WOODLAND pattern camo fabric (testing pants, pattern size same as RDF camo pattern, but colors match later Woodland color shades)

[Polygon]

Nice collection of post-Nam BDUs. If any of you guys have a cheap med-large coats made of post-Nam ERDL camouflage for sale, please PM me.

[Bob Hudson]

Nice collection of post-Nam BDUs. If any of you guys have a cheap med-large coats made of post-Nam ERDL camouflage for sale, please PM me.

 

With or without USMC and an EGA stamped on them?

[Polygon]

With or without USMC and an EGA stamped on them?

 

Preferably without.