USAF patch make????

[skir]

Picked this USAF patch up with some 1950/60 AF patches and was wondering if anyone can ID the country mfg. of the patch? Thanks in advance

[gwb123]

I was going to say Philippines right off the bat, but the attached Wikipedia article confirms they were stationed there from 1959 to 1974.

[Patchcollector]

There is a possibility that this was made in Thailand.I found this:

Operated Clark AB and its satellite facilities, April 1959-March 1965 and December 1971-September 1974.

Provided air defense training for Royal Thai Air Force personnel, from a base in Thailand, November 1961-February 1966. From mid-1962 until the end of the conflict in Southeast Asia, frequently deployed assigned and attached components to bases in Southeast Asia for air defense and combat operations under operational control of other organizations. When not so involved, components trained in air defense and other tactical exercises in Taiwan and the Philippines.

[Steverino]

There is a possibility that this was made in Thailand.I found this:

Operated Clark AB and its satellite facilities, April 1959-March 1965 and December 1971-September 1974.

Provided air defense training for Royal Thai Air Force personnel, from a base in Thailand, November 1961-February 1966. From mid-1962 until the end of the conflict in Southeast Asia, frequently deployed assigned and attached components to bases in Southeast Asia for air defense and combat operations under operational control of other organizations. When not so involved, components trained in air defense and other tactical exercises in Taiwan and the Philippines.

This patch is Philippine made. I have had several over the years from former Clark AB vets who all said the patches came from there.

 

Patch Johnson

[vintageproductions]

Thai made.

[Patchcollector]

Thai made.

 

I agree.At first glance there is a resemblance to the Philippine style.I have always said a Philippine made patch looks

like a poorly made Thai patch! This patch is very well made with the cross hatch "netting" holding it together.That

netting is not a characteristic of patches made in the Philippines.Add that to the fact that the unit was all over S.E Asia,

and my money would be on it being made in Thailand.

[Steverino]

I agree.At first glance there is a resemblance to the Philippine style.I have always said a Philippine made patch looks

like a poorly made Thai patch! This patch is very well made with the cross hatch "netting" holding it together.That

netting is not a characteristic of patches made in the Philippines.Add that to the fact that the unit was all over S.E Asia,

and my money would be on it being made in Thailand.

Just one question. Why would a Philippine-based unit have their patches made in a country where they only go (maybe) on TDY? Were Philippine patches THAT expensive?

 

Patch Johnson

[vintageproductions]

Steve-I have seen a few PI made patches with the grass weavings on the back, but for the most part you see way more Thai made patches with that on it. I also believe there is a fine line between chep looking Thai made patches and higher quality PI made patches.

Can't say how much they were to embroider when this one was made, but in the late 80's the majority of the patch shops around Subic & Clark were charging between $6.00 to $10.00 each.

[vintageproductions]

I am also sure that it is like why did so many Army units stationed in Vietnam go on TDY and have their patches made wherever they were. I am sure it was way cheaper to have them made in Vietnam then say Japan. But we see lots of Japanese made Army shoulder sleeve patches from the time.

[Patchcollector]

Just one question. Why would a Philippine-based unit have their patches made in a country where they only go (maybe) on TDY? Were Philippine patches THAT expensive?

 

Patch Johnson

 

Hi Patch,

I'm not so sure the issue was cost.I believe that the Unit had some long term "TDY'S" in some of the countries of S.E Asia.Here's what I found on the web:

Operated Clark AB and its satellite facilities, April 1959-March 1965 and December 1971-September 1974.

Provided air defense training for Royal Thai Air Force personnel, from a base in Thailand, November 1961-February 1966. From mid-1962 until the end of the conflict in Southeast Asia, frequently deployed assigned and attached components to bases in Southeast Asia for air defense and combat operations under operational control of other organizations. When not so involved, components trained in air defense and other tactical exercises in Taiwan and the Philippines.

 

The web article refers to them as satellite facilities,and they were operational for years,not weeks or months,so what I'm thinking is,if I were

say in Thailand for a long period of time,why would'nt I buy my patches there?I'm sure patches were just as cheap in Thailand as they were in the PI.

I think it was just about convenience,not cost.

[Patchcollector]

Steve-I have seen a few PI made patches with the grass weavings on the back, but for the most part you see way more Thai made patches with that on it. I also believe there is a fine line between chep looking Thai made patches and higher quality PI made patches.

Can't say how much they were to embroider when this one was made, but in the late 80's the majority of the patch shops around Subic & Clark were charging between $6.00 to $10.00 each.

 

 

I think that I have seen one that I definitely knew was made in the PI that had the weaving on the back,so,yes,it cannot be ruled out just on that aspect.

I did'nt mean to imply that all patches made in the PI are low quality,because I have seen some excellent workmanship,but it was the exception,rather than the rule.

I just based my theory about the patch being Thai made after,A.Looking at how it was constructed.B.Taking into account that the Unit was spread out all over S.E Asia for

years at a time.C.Just as you said in your post,soldiers will get patches made wherever they are stationed,even if the HQ is in another country.

 

BTW,6.00 to 10.00 for one patch in the PI?My wife is a Filipina,and that kind of money is a days wage,even today, for alot of jobs over there.No wonder the

shops that served the American bases were so unhappy when the Americans left!

[gwb123]

So much for first impressions and logical guesses!

 

As Bob noted above, sometimes you cannot tell the difference between Thai and Philippine made.

 

I originally went with PI made due to the white threads on the reverse side. I suppose that just clicked based on other patches I'd been working with. See the attached SERE patch and 3rd TFW patches both made in the Philippines.

 

Of course you will find the same on quite a few Thai made patches.

[gwb123]

The again, the mesh back does strongly suggest a Thai made patch. As noted above, it would be less common on PI made patches.

 

Attached is a Thai made 19th SOS patch.

 

Would Thai made patches have been cheaper than PI made patches during the 1960's? I am going to guess that they were not, at least not to the point of having them made in Thailand and then sent to the PI. If this was made in Thailand, I would guess it most likely would have been a local expedient for one of the detached units noted above.

 

Moving into the 1970's and 1980's, stateside units were known to continue to order Thai made patches as US made patches became more expensive and less unique in character.

[Randy]

It is Philippine made. I have later 3 TFW (which replaced the 405 FW around 1975 I think) made exactly the same way with the mesh on them, as well as a few other Clark based units. I also have this same 405 patch, and it matches other PI made patches.

Randy

[vintageproductions]

I definately bow to Randy's AF patch knowledge.

But I have had Thai made SOG pocket patches that are made identical to the above.

[Patchcollector]

It is Philippine made. I have later 3 TFW (which replaced the 405 FW around 1975 I think) made exactly the same way with the mesh on them, as well as a few other Clark based units. I also have this same 405 patch, and it matches other PI made patches.

Randy

 

 

Hi Randy,

Do you think that you could post some pics of them?I'm not trying to argue,but I think that the PI patches that I have seen

do not have the symmetry found on the patches made in Thailand.I've seen some pretty nice PI made patches,but this one

still has Thai made on it,just my opinion!Of course,I could be wrong,but that is why I am asking to see some examples,as

this could be a learning process for me!

[Randy]

Here you go. The 3 TFW was from an F-4 pilot at Clark 1977-1979. Both have the mesh back. No problem with asking, you never know what you'll discover otherwise.

Randy

[Patchcollector]

Here you go. The 3 TFW was from an F-4 pilot at Clark 1977-1979. Both have the mesh back. No problem with asking, you never know what you'll discover otherwise.

Randy

 

Yep,that looks like the original one posted!I must say,those are the best made PI patches I have seen.

[vintageproductions]

Tomorrow when I am back at the shop I will post scans of a couple Thai made RT patches, that are very similar.

[vintageproductions]

Here is a shot of Thai made SF related patches. Very similar weave and has the ever present rice woven strands on the backs.

 

[itshistory]

I'm not taking anything away from what any one has posted but there is also the variable of the origin of the machinery that's being used. From single unit embroidery machines to the tape run "blocks" of machines they all have to originate somewhere. Sales people will travel through retail districts to sell their product. The product (read machinery) could originate in Australia, Japan, United States or where ever and be in multiple countries at the same time. The commonality of origin can some times lead to shared methodology and now we are seeing the possibility. Methodology could have come with instruction on using the "newly" purchased machinery. I'm reading this thread and seeing that there is an indication of methodology being present in more than one place because area of origin is being firmly claimed by more than one participant. If neither person is wrong then an explanation must exist. I think that lies in the machinery and the method NOT being in a single place.

 

The only other explanation is the country of origin is wrong?

 

IH

[gwb123]

Here you go. The 3 TFW was from an F-4 pilot at Clark 1977-1979. Both have the mesh back. No problem with asking, you never know what you'll discover otherwise.

Randy

 

 

Ya' know, now that you posted that 3rd TFW I've seen examples made the same way. I'm thinking I might have seen them done that way in a subdued version as well.

[Randy]

Gil-

 

You're right, there are some subdued (post 1977) ones out there too. Again, there are many similarities between some Thai and Philippine manufacturing technique, but there's also some subtle differences that set them apart. That 3 TFS you posted is one of the closest to Thai that is actually Filipino that I've seen (I have one just like it). I've been lucky in that I have patches that I know where they've been and the time frames on them, and that gives me a better feel for these. I also hit about every patch shop I could find in my 26 year USAF career to include Europe, Middle East and Asia, which has helped keep me out of trouble on many occasions!

 

Randy

[gwb123]

I was lucky enough to live in Hawaii from 1983 to 1988. Back then you would find Asian made 3rd, 8th and 18th TFW patchs all the time at swap meets, military shows, etc. In fact, we really didn't put a high value on them at the time. Years later I realized that many of the 8th TFW patches were probably made in Vietnam.

 

The reason these all showed up in Hawaii is that a lot of personnel liked to stay on the "Asian circuit": Vietnam, and later Korea, Clark in the Philippines, Kadena in Japan, Okinawa, etc. To stay in this part of the world, they would rotate to an assignment at Hickam when it came time for them to return "stateside". The US military generally frowns on someone staying overseas for their entire career... the fear is they might go "native" and lose their US perspective.

 

The same thing happened with Europe. The big draw was Germany, but alternate assignments could include Italy, UK, and NATO headquarters in Brussels.

 

Interestingly, people tended to end up on one track or the other. Occaisionally you'd run into someone in Europe who had gone on a one year "hardship" tour in Korea, either just to try something different or so they would have their first choice of assignments next tour and promptly go back to Europe.

[Spikehsv]

Here you go. The 3 TFW was from an F-4 pilot at Clark 1977-1979. Both have the mesh back. No problem with asking, you never know what you'll discover otherwise.

Randy

 

I was stationed with the 405th FMS at Clark in 1973 and the patches of the 405th & 3rd FW look just like the ones I bought when I was there. The 405th became the 3rd in 1974 around late summer, definitely before Oct 1974 which is when I returned to the states. I posted the 405th patch yesterday.

Spike