Tailored 1st MarDiv uniform - What do you all think?

[American Heritage]

Hey Gents! What do you all think of this one? Did the higher ranking NCO's get these tunics tailored or is this a put-together? Curious as to any thoughts or comments?

[American Heritage]

another shot of the sleeve....

[usmcski]

Nice looking uniform! It looks to be an "officer's grade" material tunic, which was not altogether rare for senior enlisted Marines to buy for that "extra professional" look. The "blooded" 1st MarDiv patch indicates that this Marine took part in one of the initial landings (Guadalcanal? Gloucester? Experts chime in here...)

 

A few things don't look right to me, though:

 

-NO Good Conduct medal(s)? It's possible that he wasn't a "good boy", but still strikes me as odd

-One service stripe for a Tech Sgt? Not impossible, but unusual.

-Star on the WWII Victory? Haven't seen that one before...

 

If it's named, you may be able to find out exactly what ribbons the Marine rates, but the tunic itself looks like it might be unmessed with. Nice looking find!

 

Semper,

 

Ski

[American Heritage]

Semper,

 

Ski

 

Thanks for the comments and advice Ski! No name on the tailor label. This is not my uniform but I do like it although I've never seen the officer quality gabardine on many EM or Senior SNCO tunics! I really love the 1st mardiv tunics.

[Jonesy]

This type of jacket wasn't too uncommon. As previously mentioned, being a SNCO(a gunny, not a tech sergeant, that's Army/AAC) he probably wanted a sharper appearance. I know that's how I am with my uniforms and I don't even pack the stripes.

 

Only one service stripe could make sense. Seeing as men during the Second World War tended to gain rank a lot quicker than they would in peace time. You had a lot of guys coming and going, casualties, replacements, etc. Battlefield promotions were constant. He could have been in the service anywhere between 4 to almost 8 years. So being a pre war marine with service into the war would make sense for being a gunny with one hash mark.

 

The ribbons are not too uncommon either. You see lots of single 3 place ribbon bars on these jackets. Some guys just didn't like to wear them, or they just preferred their combat ribbons. Granted before the hostilities of World War Two there were far fewer ribbons to be had. He probably just didn't have that big of a stack. In this case however, there was probably another ribbon bar or two that just aren't on the jacket. That happens quite often. The star on the victory ribbons pop up all the time. That seems like it was fashion thing more than anything. I see it on ribbon racks constantly. I think guys just tended to like the look of it. Another theory is that it denotes service in World War One(ie victory medal times two), in lieu of wearing the World War One victory medal/battle stars.

 

The red border around the patch is an old breed thing as far as I know. I think it signifies being one of the originals to land on Guadalcanal. I'll let some of the USMC experts go more in depth with this. I'm really a novice as far as this stuff is concerned, I just find it incredibly interesting.

[Kurt Barickman]

Saw this on Ebay yesterday and love it. :thumbsup: Just saw a very nice tunic like this to a member of the 3rd Division recently. These senior NCOs like to have tailored officer quality greens when possible and affordable I suppose. The ribbons are almost always goofy and often when you see period ribbon bars the veterans were actually able to wear more than what is on the ribbon bar. The blooded patches have a hundred different interpretations and the one that I hold to is that they are just plain "cool." They are very desirable patches are worth a few dollars as well. Too bad about the name though.

 

Kurt Barickman

[usmcski]

This type of jacket wasn't too uncommon. As previously mentioned, being a SNCO(a gunny, not a tech sergeant, that's Army/AAC) he probably wanted a sharper appearance. I know that's how I am with my uniforms and I don't even pack the stripes.

 

Only one service stripe could make sense. Seeing as men during the Second World War tended to gain rank a lot quicker than they would in peace time. You had a lot of guys coming and going, casualties, replacements, etc. Battlefield promotions were constant. He could have been in the service anywhere between 4 to almost 8 years. So being a pre war marine with service into the war would make sense for being a gunny with one hash mark.

 

The ribbons are not too uncommon either. You see lots of single 3 place ribbon bars on these jackets. Some guys just didn't like to wear them, or they just preferred their combat ribbons. Granted before the hostilities of World War Two there were far fewer ribbons to be had. He probably just didn't have that big of a stack. In this case however, there was probably another ribbon bar or two that just aren't on the jacket. That happens quite often. The star on the victory ribbons pop up all the time. That seems like it was fashion thing more than anything. I see it on ribbon racks constantly. I think guys just tended to like the look of it. Another theory is that it denotes service in World War One(ie victory medal times two), in lieu of wearing the World War One victory medal/battle stars.

 

The red border around the patch is an old breed thing as far as I know. I think it signifies being one of the originals to land on Guadalcanal. I'll let some of the USMC experts go more in depth with this. I'm really a novice as far as this stuff is concerned, I just find it incredibly interesting.

 

Jonesy,

 

In rank structure of the USMC during WWII, three stripes up, two bars down was a Technical Sgt (OR supply sergeant/steward first class/cook first class)...Three stripes up, two rockers down was/is a GySgt (I know, I was one once upon a time!)

 

Concur with you on the "rank in a short time" theory... We had a guest speaker come to the squadron when I was with VMFA-232. He was the squadron SgtMaj when it was VMTB-232 on Okinawa, and he was an "old salt" with less than four years in! He thought it was quite ironic that he was a SgtMaj with no hashmark!!!

 

Reading the ePay listing on this one, it states that the ribbon bar was purchased at the same estate sale, just not on the uniform. That tells me that there is probably a bar missing from the group, I'd be curious to find out what the TechSgt rates re: ribbons/awards...

 

Semper,

 

Ski

[shrapneldude]

Certainly not unheard of. I have an "officer grade" USMC coat with Sgt. Stripes and EM EGAs on it in my collection, and have seen a few others floating around as well. That one looks like a nice one to me! :thumbsup:

 

[usmcski]

Certainly not unheard of. I have an "officer grade" USMC coat with Sgt. Stripes and EM EGAs on it in my collection, and have seen a few others floating around as well. That one looks like a nice one to me! :thumbsup:

 

 

Nice one, 'dude! I'd imagine that, Marines being Marines, the Gyrenes who went out and purchased these uniforms wanted to look extra sharp (and probably not itch as much!)

 

The more I collect USMC uniforms, the more I learn (AND, the more I fall in LOVE with this period in Corps History!)

 

Semper,

 

Ski

[camopara]

Here's a nice officer quality with a 'blooded' patch.

 

[doyler]

I have a 5th Division uniform.Had it since 1978.Bought it from a guy who was in my dads coin club.He had purchased a house and the uniform was in the closet.He handed me the uniform right from the coset and I handed him the $15 he asked for it.Jacket has Platoon Sgt rank(3 up and one rocker),5th Mar Div patch and couple ribbons.No name in the sleeve.As I said had it for ever and was my only patched USMC unifom I had.Took it out for a display once and noticed something in the upper left pocket.I found a two place ribbon bar with Purple heart and good conduct.The vet either never put them on or took them off for some reason.Couple more years fly by and now its 2007.I got to talking with a friend and he said if the guy was wounded he may be listed in the 5ths unit history.I knew there was no name in the jacket but remembered the trousers.Sure enough he matched the name to a man who was in the 5th Tank Bn/Co and was wounded on Iwo.Have seen the GCM ribbon worn and not worn.

 

Also have uniform with Tech Sgt ranking.Dont recall if it has good conduct stripes or not.He was in the Band and never went overseas as I recall.Also have his P41 hbt jacket with Sgt stripe sewn on.

 

RD

 

RD

[doyler]

Leif

 

Thats a nice one!!

I have a similiar officer quality uniform but not patched out.It was tailor made in Austrailia.

[Brian Dentino]

All I can say is that I like all the uniforms posted here......all very nice, and certainly to some Marines that wanted to stand out in their dress.....after all, these tailored uniforms had to cost a pretty penny to these guys back then, but apparently it was an investment that was well worth it to them to look sharp. I think all of these are examples of proud Marines being PROUD OF THEIR CORPS. :thumbsup: :salute:

[usmcski]

I'm with you on this one, Brian. I think that one thing missing from the modern day Corps is the swagger that Gyrenes had back then. There's just something about the way they wore the uniform...spit shined shoes, "battle pins" in their "battle scarves" (NOT neckties), and the jaunty tilt of their headgear...be it a steel pot, piss cutter, or barracks cap. The private purchase of higher quality uniform by enlisted men and noncoms was just a step closer to saltiness that Marines strove for.

 

I think when the services went to cammies as the working uniform for EVERYONE, we lost something in the process. I can remember standing duty in the barracks in Charlies, and Alphas on the weekends! Come to think of it, so did the MPs, gate guards, admin types, etc... Cammies were a WORKING uniform, meaning, you got DIRTY in them. Don't get me wrong, in garrison we still starched the s@#t out of them, spit shined our boots, and I still block and starch my cammie covers (I even cut the eight point stitching out of them....I hate that look).

 

Anyway, off of my soapbox... I think every WWII USMC uniform collector should own at least ONE of these enlisted/officer hybrid uniforms, they are SHARP!

 

Semper,

 

Ski

[American Heritage]

Great uniforms! Thanks for confirming their use.

 

Ski, that look is not just lost to the Corps but to modern society as well - look at the way we dress today - pathetic - and I'm as guilty as anyone else, but my Dad's generation didn't get on a train or an airplace without a tie and jacket. I'm not saying let's return to leave it to beaver days, I'm just saying that it is sad commentary when people make fun of a well dressed man for being overdressed or perhaps being gay and the double standard that women are not worthy of attention of men unless they are all decked out, dress, make-up etc.! I am talking too much - so I'll stop. I do agree with you that I love the WW2 Corps and its uniforms.

 

Love that blood patch! Thanks for showing the uniforms.

[1944]

Excellent looking 1st U.S.M.C Div Uniform :thumbsup: Very Nice to see

Looks amazing with the blood red felt behind the unit Div Patch.

Thank's for sharing

[Jonesy]

Tons of great knowledge in this thread. However, I'm someone can explain this to me.

 

 

If three up and two rockers down is a gunny in World War Two, how is that a tech sergeant? Isn't that three up and two down right there?

[Leatherwringer]

Tons of great knowledge in this thread. However, I'm someone can explain this to me.

If three up and two rockers down is a gunny in World War Two, how is that a tech sergeant? Isn't that three up and two down right there?

 

going from what I have read in the thread here.....rockers are different than the bars shown in the original post....

 

[TLeo]

Tons of great knowledge in this thread. However, I'm someone can explain this to me.

If three up and two rockers down is a gunny in World War Two, how is that a tech sergeant? Isn't that three up and two down right there?

 

According to my book "Decorations, Medals, Ribons Insignia of the US Marine Corps WW2 to Present" the stripes with the two straight rockers was TechSgt while the two curved rocker was GunnerySgt. from '44 to '46. From '46 to '59 the stripes with the two curved rockers was the GunnerySgt rank and was the only one with the three up/two down in use.. After '1959 the crossed rifles were added to the Gunnery Sgt chevrons.

I think the difference between TechSgt and GunnerySgt during the war had something to do with job MOS such as being line nco or more admin/technical nco's

[usmcski]

For a good narrative of the organization and rank structure of WWII enlisted Marines, see the following:

 

www.ww2gyrene.org/rank_structure.htm

 

Semper,

 

Ski

[teufelhunde.ret]

I'm with you on this one, Brian. I think that one thing missing from the modern day Corps is the swagger that Gyrenes had back then. There's just something about the way they wore the uniform...spit shined shoes, "battle pins" in their "battle scarves" (NOT neckties), and the jaunty tilt of their headgear...be it a steel pot, piss cutter, or barracks cap. The private purchase of higher quality uniform by enlisted men and noncoms was just a step closer to saltiness that Marines strove for.

 

I think when the services went to cammies as the working uniform for EVERYONE, we lost something in the process. I can remember standing duty in the barracks in Charlies, and Alphas on the weekends! Come to think of it, so did the MPs, gate guards, admin types, etc... Cammies were a WORKING uniform, meaning, you got DIRTY in them. Don't get me wrong, in garrison we still starched the s@#t out of them, spit shined our boots, and I still block and starch my cammie covers (I even cut the eight point stitching out of them....I hate that look).

 

Anyway, off of my soapbox... I think every WWII USMC uniform collector should own at least ONE of these enlisted/officer hybrid uniforms, they are SHARP!

 

Semper,

 

Ski

 

VERY well said! s/fD.

[shrapneldude]

I'm with you on this one, Brian. I think that one thing missing from the modern day Corps is the swagger that Gyrenes had back then. There's just something about the way they wore the uniform...spit shined shoes, "battle pins" in their "battle scarves" (NOT neckties), and the jaunty tilt of their headgear...be it a steel pot, piss cutter, or barracks cap. The private purchase of higher quality uniform by enlisted men and noncoms was just a step closer to saltiness that Marines strove for.

 

I think when the services went to cammies as the working uniform for EVERYONE, we lost something in the process. I can remember standing duty in the barracks in Charlies, and Alphas on the weekends! Come to think of it, so did the MPs, gate guards, admin types, etc... Cammies were a WORKING uniform, meaning, you got DIRTY in them. Don't get me wrong, in garrison we still starched the s@#t out of them, spit shined our boots, and I still block and starch my cammie covers (I even cut the eight point stitching out of them....I hate that look).

 

Anyway, off of my soapbox... I think every WWII USMC uniform collector should own at least ONE of these enlisted/officer hybrid uniforms, they are SHARP!

 

Semper,

 

Ski

 

Not to disagree with you at all -- but I wonder if the primary motivation for these enlisted Marines wearing Officer quality uniform wasn't so much pride in corps as it was a means of attracting the ladies off-post. Let's face it... your average warfighting Marine cares about one thing and one thing only. Wouldn't this sort of thing get them gigged on an inspection? "One of these Marines is not like the others."

 

As to the uniform thing, I'm just grateful the Marine Corps wasn't wearing shorts and knee-high socks as their combat utility uniform.

[Brian Dentino]

Not to disagree with you at all -- but I wonder if the primary motivation for these enlisted Marines wearing Officer quality uniform wasn't so much pride in corps as it was a means of attracting the ladies off-post. Let's face it... your average warfighting Marine cares about one thing and one thing only.

 

This was also my thoughts when saying that this Marine took pride in the way he looked.....but MAYBE not for other Marines....if you know what I mean? :naughty:

You know....a Marine version of "Liberty" cuffs that the Navy men used to "look extra sharp" on leave.....Maybe these were the "special" liberty uniforms these Marines used...........for whatever reason.

[teufelhunde.ret]

Not to disagree with you at all -- but I wonder if the primary motivation for these enlisted Marines wearing Officer quality uniform wasn't so much pride in corps as it was a means of attracting the ladies off-post. Let's face it... your average warfighting Marine cares about one thing and one thing only. Wouldn't this sort of thing get them gigged on an inspection? "One of these Marines is not like the others."

 

As to the uniform thing, I'm just grateful the Marine Corps wasn't wearing shorts and knee-high socks as their combat utility uniform.

D. Not to disagree - but I am. I was issued one of those wool horse blankets back in the day. They wore terrible, and were hot & itchy YEAROUND (back in the day we had only one class A), and stunk, especially when wet or damp. Most of those Officer Tunic's we see today, were bought buy SNCO's - not by troops making a liberty call, they simply did not have the jingle to invest in something to make them look fancy on a booty call, they had other designs with such money... my2cents worth. s/f D.

[Corpsmancollector]

Some beautiful examples here gents, very very nice.

 

Leif, is the paramarine uniform documented? A real beauty! And an Aussie patch too?