A challenge to "Thai made" thinking

[itshistory]

I have watched with amusement the debate about patch construction from the Vietnam period. I have also watched many collectors refer to "Thai made" patches based on their peculiar construction. Everyone has seen the 16th SOS Spectre series of patches and point to them as being Thai made because the 16th operated out of Thailand. Well, what happens when I show you patches made the same way that didn't come from Thailand? How can that be? First response would be those guys went to Thailand and had the patches made. Here is a different and very true way that it happened. Scanned are patches made the "Thai" way. I submit that you can't tell the difference between them as far as construction and quality goes. These are works of art. I can assure you that one came from a shop in Thailand and the other two came from a shop in Vietnam. The 16th SOS Spectre came from tailor shop that was part of a chain of shops outside many of the US bases in Thailand. These shops catered fine custom made clothing, including "party suits", to US servicemen. These shops were part of the RAJAWONGSE enterprise. They exist to this day all over Southeast Asia. They are not a Thai enterprise but an Indian enterprise. The other two patches shown belong to the 282nd Assault Helicopter Company when they were based at Marble Mountain, near DaNang. RAJAWONGSE had a shop in DaNang.

These two patches were made there and gifted to me by an associate with whom I flew in the US Army. The patches all pictured are traceable to two different places, neither of them owned or operated by anyone but Indians. This magnificent work is theirs, often found as the insignia sewn onto party suits that they made. RAJAWONGSE wasn't alone, there was MAHARAJA TAILORS, another prolific maker of clothing and "party suits". MAHARAJA had shops in both Thailand and Vietnam. MAHARAJA was also Indian. While many, many of these suits and insignia are USAF related to units located in Thailand, they are not Thai made.

 

IH

[Patchcollector]

This is an important topic that needs to be addressed because people sometimes jump to conclusions about patches

that are theatre made,thinking that they may be repros,or genuine,but made elsewhere.There is not one set style to go by when examining theatre made patches,

because they were made in small shops,even houses,by a bewildering variety of people,some skilled,some not so.And there were many levels of quality that

servicemen and women could choose during the war,from "Cheap Charlie" to experienced tailors that produced embroidered works of art,depending on how

much they wanted to spend.A rule of thumb about origin once authenticity has been established would be to see where the unit was stationed,like you said,the 16th was stationed in Thailand,so it would stand to reason that the patches for that unit were made there.This holds true most of the time,but as we all know,there are always exceptions to the rule.I have a few Thai made patches for units that were based in Vietnam,and vice versa,mostly aviation units,because they really got around S.E Asia.I'm sure that this has been discussed in other threads before,but I just wanted to chime in.BTW,that 282nd patch is awesome,if you ever want to part with it.......

[JCFalkenbergIII]

You must have missed this lively thread on a similar subject . Robert

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...=83970&st=0

[gwb123]

"I have watched with amusement the debate about patch construction from the Vietnam period."

 

On behalf of those of us who have spent hours on this Forum trying to assist members in understanding where their patches came from, when they were made, and how to sort out the fake from the real, I'd just like to say I am glad that we could be here for your entertainment.

 

Having said that, your basic point is valid.

 

Many of us have gotten in the habit of referring to certain styles in terms of the countries where they were most commonly seen. As you have said, that only gives part of the picture.

 

Many vets have referred to having patches made in Vietnam by "Indian" tailor shops. I've also seen patches that have a very distinct Pakistani look to them that are bona fide wartime pieces. I believe there were also Filipino tailor shops in country as well.

 

The other trap in using in using a generic term such as "Thai made" or "Vietnam made" is that it implies there was a singular and universal embroidery style used in each country. This is far from the case, with dozens of shops not only having stylistic differences, but also with patches coming out of the same shop being made differently by different tailors or seamstresses. The countries of Southeast Asia have centuries of highly developed embroidery arts, leading to what seems to be endless variations of style and construction.

 

We also have innumerable cases of patches being made in one country, say Korea, and being worn in another, Vietnam.

 

It is unfortunate, but no one has yet to make much progress in linking particular embroidery styles to more than only a handful of shops. Judging by USAF patches worn at various bases, we have a good idea of the shops that existed outside of Korat, Udorn, and Ubon. But I think few if any of them have been named. We also know there were specific shops serving the USN Riverine units based on the distinctive elements of their work. And the best known shop is the one from Saigon known as Cheap Charlies.

 

I had friends in Texas who embarked on the mission to identify the specific shops that had produced the USSF Recon Team patches. They did not get very far in this effort. Like most collectors they ended up with more generic identifications based upon country of origin (Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Okinawa, etc.) Few of the vets they intereviewed could tell them much about the shops, let alone their names, where they had bought these items.

 

So can we now describe these finely embroidered, white cloth backed, cut edge patches as made in an Indian tailor shop in either Thailand or Vietnam? Well, that would be an improvement and a refinement for this one subset. But we still have dozens of other distinctive styles out there that are yet to be identified to a specific shop. As memories fade, this is becoming less and less likely.

 

As a post script, in case you have not been following Hawkdrivers postings from Iraq, we are now seeing "theater made patches" being sold at PX concessions being made by contract employees from Bangladesh. How do we classify these? Bangladesh made in Iraq? Does their manufacturing techique reflect anything they would actually do in their home country? Or are they simply operating PX or contractor supplied equipment according to the training they have been given by their employer? This is something the next generation of collectors can ponder.

[itshistory]

This is an important topic that needs to be addressed because people sometimes jump to conclusions about patches

that are theatre made,thinking that they may be repros,or genuine,but made elsewhere.There is not one set style to go by when examining theatre made patches,

because they were made in small shops,even houses,by a bewildering variety of people,some skilled,some not so.And there were many levels of quality that

servicemen and women could choose during the war,from "Cheap Charlie" to experienced tailors that produced embroidered works of art,depending on how

much they wanted to spend.A rule of thumb about origin once authenticity has been established would be to see where the unit was stationed,like you said,the 16th was stationed in Thailand,so it would stand to reason that the patches for that unit were made there.This holds true most of the time,but as we all know,there are always exceptions to the rule.I have a few Thai made patches for units that were based in Vietnam,and vice versa,mostly aviation units,because they really got around S.E Asia.I'm sure that this has been discussed in other threads before,but I just wanted to chime in.BTW,that 282nd patch is awesome,if you ever want to part with it.......

Lots of personnel went to Thailand, Okinawa, Japan and the Philippines on R&R. Visits to the clothiers for party suits and other things such as custom made patches were commonplace. Really bad patches are not that hard to pick out, just like really good ones are easy to recognize. But as you rightly point out, Southeast Asia is very broad and many levels of ability will be found throughout the area. Poorer quality stuff is in the minority, that "hooch maid" kinda thing that mamma-san did to make a dollar. The more consistently good construction items make up the majority of things and even though the units are many, the manner of construction and materials involved are widely shared.

 

IH

[itshistory]

"I have watched with amusement the debate about patch construction from the Vietnam period."

 

On behalf of those of us who have spent hours on this Forum trying to assist members in understanding where their patches came from, when they were made, and how to sort out the fake from the real, I'd just like to say I am glad that we could be here for your entertainment.

 

Having said that, your basic point is valid.

 

Many of us have gotten in the habit of referring to certain styles in terms of the countries where they were most commonly seen. As you have said, that only gives part of the picture.

 

Many vets have referred to having patches made in Vietnam by "Indian" tailor shops. I've also seen patches that have a very distinct Pakistani look to them that are bona fide wartime pieces. I believe there were also Filipino tailor shops in country as well.

 

The other trap in using in using a generic term such as "Thai made" or "Vietnam made" is that it implies there was a singular and universal embroidery style used in each country. This is far from the case, with dozens of shops not only having stylistic differences, but also with patches coming out of the same shop being made differently by different tailors or seamstresses. The countries of Southeast Asia have centuries of highly developed embroidery arts, leading to what seems to be endless variations of style and construction.

 

We also have innumerable cases of patches being made in one country, say Korea, and being worn in another, Vietnam.

 

It is unfortunate, but no one has yet to make much progress in linking particular embroidery styles to more than only a handful of shops. Judging by USAF patches worn at various bases, we have a good idea of the shops that existed outside of Korat, Udorn, and Ubon. But I think few if any of them have been named. We also know there were specific shops serving the USN Riverine units based on the distinctive elements of their work. And the best known shop is the one from Saigon known as Cheap Charlies.

 

I had friends in Texas who embarked on the mission to identify the specific shops that had produced the USSF Recon Team patches. They did not get very far in this effort. Like most collectors they ended up with more generic identifications based upon country of origin (Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Okinawa, etc.) Few of the vets they intereviewed could tell them much about the shops, let alone their names, where they had bought these items.

 

So can we now describe these finely embroidered, white cloth backed, cut edge patches as made in an Indian tailor shop in either Thailand or Vietnam? Well, that would be an improvement and a refinement for this one subset. But we still have dozens of other distinctive styles out there that are yet to be identified to a specific shop. As memories fade, this is becoming less and less likely.

 

As a post script, in case you have not been following Hawkdrivers postings from Iraq, we are now seeing "theater made patches" being sold at PX concessions being made by contract employees from Bangladesh. How do we classify these? Bangladesh made in Iraq? Does their manufacturing techique reflect anything they would actually do in their home country? Or are they simply operating PX or contractor supplied equipment according to the training they have been given by their employer? This is something the next generation of collectors can ponder.

 

Yes, I've glanced at those postings. For myself, much of Army insignia after 1985 is of little interest. What's getting made today by who and in what country will be someone else's conundrum.

The AAFES concessions probably do not supply the equipment being used in the current circumstances. Whoever runs that property probably has to supply their own equipment. What that equipment is capable of doing depends on who made it and how sophisticated it can be set up to operate. If the Bangladesh are bringing their own equipment designed and manufactured in their own country then it may be fair to say it's reflection of their style and ability. If instead they are buying or renting locally supplied equipment then who knows where that comes from, the United Kingdom? Japan? As each generation has been passing, the use of and manufacture of insignia has grown exponentially. It's just my opinion mind you, but the ability to pin down where and when insignia was made is nearing an impossibility.

 

IH

[gwb123]

Well, we share at least one thought in common.

 

A lot of collectors bemoaned the fact that the hobby would have nothing interesting to offer post 1980 or so. Everything was computer generated or mass produced and what was the fun in collecting that. Never mind the fact that patches were still being locally made in Korea, the PI and occaisionally Thailand.

 

With Desert Storm and OIF/OEF we've had a new round of "theater made" patches. Everywhere from Turkey to Afghanistan, ranging from well made to surprisingly crude, from computer generated to hand guided sewing machine. There have been a few hand embroidered items pop up, but the jury is still out on many of them.

 

We've had discussions on here about trying to document at least what base they were purchased at, and we've had some success with that. Call this a lesson from the Vietnam period.... document things while they are happening.

[Patchcollector]

Amen to all written here,it's not a bad thing to discuss things of this nature,there will always be controversial subjects

due to human nature,and in this case,as was pointed out,a lack of proper documentation at the root level.When I look

at my collection,the only patches that I can sincerely say without any doubt are authentic to the time and place that

they were made are the ones that I myself received when I was in the military.Even provenance can be faked,sad to say.

Robert,I just read part of the thread that you pointed me to,wow!I did'nt read it all,it's getting late,but what Kammo-man said

resonated with me.It's all about time and place.I do not consider "Cheap Charlie" patches as repros any more than I consider

all the patches bought from the PX's during WW2 by noncombatants repros,as long as the unit was active at the time the patches were made.

[Patchcollector]

One last point before I bed down,I am not,nor ever will be,in this hobby as an "investment",financially speaking.I have seen a few collectors

get uptight about when and where a patch was made,and they are coming from a purely financial standpoint.I collect patches and badges because

I enjoy it,and yes,as I have become more seasoned,my buying pattern has changed a bit,but I still buy a patch or badge for eye appeal first,whether

it's newly made,plastic backed,or made long ago more traditionally.It almost seems a form of snobbery,in a way,to say only a patch made this way

can be deemed "real",and the lesser made examples are all garbage,even though they were made the same time and place.I am not speaking of anyone who has commented

in this thread,BTW.

[itshistory]

Here is another finely made patch by the Indian staff of the RAJAWONGSE shop near DaNang and Marble Mountain. This from the 62nd Aviation Company which at this time was a Corps Aviation Company. Pretty big outfit by company standards. In the accompanying photo are some GI's with the head staff of the shop. I have been told that the type of head gear worn by different sects of Indian peoples can reflect what sect it is they belong to. I'd be curious to find out if this is true. Anyone?

 

IH

[itshistory]

Well, I goofed on this one. Photo too big. Here's the second one.

 

IH

[John L]

Siks, if I have it spelled correctly wear the turbins. I am not sure if any others wear anything special.

[itshistory]

Siks, if I have it spelled correctly wear the turbins. I am not sure if any others wear anything special.

 

Well, it's Sikh and wow did that open up some information. I looked at Wikipedia under turban and the response was huge. There is a lot of sophistication in the Who, Where and Why department for the wearing of the turban in India alone. I couldn't think of what the head dress was called, thanks for bringing it up.

 

IH

[River Patrol]

While we use the terms "Thai-made"/"Vietnamese-made"/"Japanese-made" etc., we are not trying to identify the exact maker of the patch, just merely trying to catagorize the style of patch to make communication flow easier among collectors. I appreciate the facet of information that is reflected in your analysis, especially from primary source information, but I think it will be a short list for those that want to "break-it-down" to this level.

[River Patrol]

Is there any distinguishing characteristic on the front of the patch that would identify it to this maker, if say you were to stumble upon a patch for a different unit from this maker (e.g. no serifs used in the letterings or other type of font characteristics that are unique to this maker)?

 

Steve

[itshistory]

Is there any distinguishing characteristic on the front of the patch that would identify it to this maker, if say you were to stumble upon a patch for a different unit from this maker (e.g. no serifs used in the letterings or other type of font characteristics that are unique to this maker)?

 

Steve

 

I have not taken it down to that level. From the examples I have displaying this type of embroidery and overall patch construction they have pretty much been traceable back to units who were based in the vicinity of RAJAWONGSE shops. They had shops around all of the major US bases in Thailand so the propensity for the patches to be of USAF nature and of units at those major bases is quite regular. As best I can ascertain, RAJAWONGSE had at minimum one shop outside of DaNang near Marble Mountain in Vietnam. If they had other shops I have yet to discover it. Party suits that I have had opportunity to examine that were labeled with RAJAWONGSE tags frequently sport these style of patches. They also would display machine embroidery similar to that shown above that is commonly referred to as Thai machine embroidery. This machine embroidery I have seen also on MAHARAJA suits and they had many shops both in Thailand and Vietnam, many more than RAJAWONGSE. But none of those that I can recall displayed the beautiful hand embroidered patches. The machine embroidery could have been applied in either country, maybe even others. It's seems more that it's characteristic of the machinery than who applied it.

 

IH

[Patchcollector]

Interesting stuff,so patches that use Indian style embroidery were made during wartime in the AO. :think:

I'm wondering,what's the back of the Coachman patch look like,completely white,like the others?

Also,wondering what the stitching looks like from behind,but the white backing would have to be removed.

Here's another question,did the Indian shops employ Indian patchmakers,or local Thais and Vietnamese?

The Indians may have been the owners,but maybe not the actual patchmakers.

[itshistory]

Interesting stuff,so patches that use Indian style embroidery were made during wartime in the AO. :think:

I'm wondering,what's the back of the Coachman patch look like,completely white,like the others?

Also,wondering what the stitching looks like from behind,but the white backing would have to be removed.

Here's another question,did the Indian shops employ Indian patchmakers,or local Thais and Vietnamese?

The Indians may have been the owners,but maybe not the actual patchmakers.

The back of the Coachman patch is the same heavy white cloth. I have never broken the border of any of these patches to see what the back of the embroidery looks like. To me, the destruction is not worth the knowing. The Indians were quite protective of the methods and procedures and did not hire locals. I guess that is akin to proprietary knowledge and something they didn't want to give away.

 

IH

[River Patrol]

I have not taken it down to that level.

 

IH,

I think you should. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. These high quality patches are unique among patches of this era and offer the best workmanship of the craft. Special touches were added to these patches. I will say no more since patch analysis is such a bone of contention, except...enjoy!

Steve

[itshistory]

IH,

I think you should. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. These high quality patches are unique among patches of this era and offer the best workmanship of the craft. Special touches were added to these patches. I will say no more since patch analysis is such a bone of contention, except...enjoy!

Steve

Man, you want to poke the ant hill with a stick!!

 

IH

[River Patrol]

Man, you want to poke the ant hill with a stick!!

 

IH

 

No, you misunderstood. I wouldn't compare it to a Cheap Charlie, but I would compare it to other Thai made patches or to other 282nd "Alley Cat" patches (although there are very few around).

[itshistory]

No, you misunderstood. I wouldn't compare it to a Cheap Charlie, but I would compare it to other Thai made patches or to other 282nd "Alley Cat" patches (although there are very few around).

Well comparing it to Cheap Charlie didn't come to mind. I just remember seeing how infuriated people got about comparing construction. Collect what you feel comfortable with is my motto. Here's a different construction Alley Cats, more are less what I feel to be mainstream Vietnamese made.

 

IH

[Patchcollector]

Very cool patch,IH,I would like to get an example of that unit :w00t: BTW,I just saw a Coachman patch come up for sale on eBay,seller said it was made in Germany

[Patchcollector]

Hey,while I'm thinking about it,I just got this patch,and when I bought it,I thought it was a modern made in Pakistan repro,but I liked it anyway and the price was cheap,

so I bought it.Now,with your insight,I'm wondering if this may be one of the patches made during wartime that you discussed in this thread.What do you think,IH?

[itshistory]

Very cool patch,IH,I would like to get an example of that unit :w00t: BTW,I just saw a Coachman patch come up for sale on eBay,seller said it was made in Germany

 

The one on ebay is not made in Germany. It was made in the US and sent over. My father-in-law was Battalion Commander of the 11th Aviation Battalion in Germany from 1974 though 1976. The companies in the battalion were the 62nd AHC, 173rd AHC, 175th AVN Co and the 334th AWC. He gave me the patches they wore at that time and the 62nd one on ebay is identical.

 

IH