WAR MOVIE BLUNDERS

[General Apathy]

 

Hi Sabrejet & Craig, thanks for your comments on my dealing with purchasers for film work.

 

Not wishing to labour too long on my dealings with film productions, but lets look at the questions mentioned below and then lets look for some of these points in the period WWII photographs above. So lets take a look and try to figure out what's wrong with the three photo's, answers at the bottom of this page.

 

Movies that have the shoulder sleeve insignia on uniforms wrongly positioned?

 

BOS and "U.S." brass on officers' blouses not lined up properly and maybe in odd places....

 

Do costumers and art directors not use contemporaneous photos

 

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Why was a photo taken of an American in field jacket stood with British guys in RAF uniform ???? He was actually a volunteer pilot in the RAF before the American USAAF arrived in Britain in 1942, and continued to serve with his RAF crew but he wore U.S. uniform. If you hadn't heard of Americans volunteering before WWII would that be obvious from the photo.

 

Three officers stood discussing a map anything wrong with that. ???? yes there is, the negative was reverse printed the shoulder sleeve insignia appears on the wrong shoulder, and the jacket of the officer in the centre buttons up in the wrong direction. Was the SSI insignia scrubbed out because someone spotted it was reverse printed, no it was done by the sensor before publication of the photo.

 

Officer in the Chemical Corp everything tickety boo in the photo ????? No not really he's wearing his BOS insignia upside down, if you didn't study military insignia would you know that.

 

Just a small sample, and now that there are some really good re-enactor groups out there with original kit or good reproductions, then lets consider their penchant for having their photos printed in monochrome and sometimes even stamped with a Signal Corp stamp, how long before some of these shots are mixed in and considered contemporaneous.

 

Are the three photographs above all original WWII or can anyone guess if there's a fake been slipped in there :think:

 

lewis

[Sabrejet]

Nice one Kenneth!

 

Ian :thumbsup:

[M1Marksman]

Sniper rifle used in Kelly's Heroes in the bell tower was a Russian M91/30, but should've been a 1903A4. I guess it comes down to what's available. The movie was filmed in Yugoslavia, same as "Return To Navarone".

 

If I remember correctly, the "Tigers" in Kelly's Heroes were Brit Centurions with some plywood armor.

 

MacArthur with Gregory Peck; there was a scene with jets dropping napalm in Korea, but the jet was an F4 Phantom 2 (not available until Viet Nam). OOPS.

 

And what about "The Big Red One"? Lots of inaccuarte stuff there. Funny how only ONE squad did ALL the fighting. No sounds of firefights, battles, artillery, or skirmishes in the background at all.

[Sabrejet]

"And what about "The Big Red One"? Lots of inaccurate stuff there. Funny how only ONE squad did ALL the fighting. No sounds of firefights, battles, artillery, or skirmishes in the background at all."

 

Not to mention the Israeli M-51 Super-Shermans....but at least they were Shermans, I suppose?!

 

Sabrejet :w00t:

[Sabrejet]

 

 

Ironic...an Israeli tank with Nazi markings!

 

Sabrejet :w00t:

[45ACP]

John Wayne with a Krag when everyone else has a 1903A3 in "Fighting Seabees"

[303lithgow]

The Green Berets with the sun setting over the South China Sea like in a Western. The sun RISES over the South China Sea.

[J_Andrews]

Re The Green Berets:

1. John Wayne disembarking at the "DaNang" airbase...sure looked like Lawson Army Airfield, Ft Benning....and none of the mountains on the horizon that surrounded DaNang on 2 1/2 sides.

2. Next scene, JW in M151 jeep in "DaNang"....jeep has full Stateside markings and is CLEAN (!!??)...and all the signage in DaNang is in Chinese.

3. The VNese LLDB officer (George Takei of Star Trek) speaks VNese in Japanese fashion/accent, like he i struggling to read teh words. Meanwhile, the Montagnard chieftain -- an uneducated, backward tribal guy -- speaks very nice VNeses...

4. One of the Viet Cong charging through the wire is carrying an Armalite AR-7 .22 with phoney M1928-style wooden foregrip.

 

I am sure there are more.

 

I saw this movie three times: 1. First-run in the civilian theaters, before going on active duty....thought it was one of JWs worst, but otherwise ho-hum; 2. On-post at Ft Benning, with non-stop hooting and hollering from the audience, to the extent the management turned on the lights and announced they would call the MPs to clear the house if it kept up; 3. In Fayetteville NC (off-post Bragg), just before heading to RVN....lots of laughter and smart-alec remarks from the audience, but not raucous.

[303lithgow]

Re The Green Berets:

...and all the signage in DaNang is in Chinese.

 

I was never in DaNang but around Saigon, Ben Hoa, and Tay Ninh the signage is in Roman Script. You prompted me to read a little about it and the following is taken from Wikipedia. Its interesting that in differan regions the written language is differant. It seems reasonable that the closer to China the more they used their script.

 

Wikipedia said "Currently, the written language uses the Vietnamese alphabet (quốc ngữ or "national script", literally "national language"), based on the Latin alphabet. Originally a Romanization of Vietnamese, it was codified in the 17th century by a French Jesuit missionary named Alexandre de Rhodes (1591–1660), based on works of earlier Portuguese missionaries (Gaspar do Amaral and António Barbosa). The use of the script was gradually extended from its initial domain in Christian writing to become more popular among the general public.

 

Under French colonial rule, the script became official and required for all public documents in 1910 by issue of a decree by the French Résident Supérieur of the protectorate of Tonkin. By the end of first half 20th century virtually all writings were done in quốc ngữ.

 

Changes in the script were made by French scholars and administrators and by conferences held after independence during 1954–1974. The script now reflects a so-called Middle Vietnamese dialect that has vowels and final consonants most similar to northern dialects and initial consonants most similar to southern dialects (Nguyễn 1996). This Middle Vietnamese is presumably close to the Hanoi variety as spoken sometime after 1600 but before the present. (This is not unlike how English orthography is based on the Chancery Standard of late Middle English, with many spellings retained even after significant phonetic change.)

 

Before French rule, the first two Vietnamese writing systems were based on Chinese script"

 

I bet we have a few here that might speak and write Vietnamese. I'm not sure this is the right string to discuss this but I would like to hear what others say.

[sprprops]

There are "blunders" in even the most prestigious multi-million $$ productions...even Spielberg's "SPR" is not without its faults. In the final battle scene, at least one of the paratroopers is wearing black jumpboots. At first, I though it was due to the deliberately de-saturated colour of the movie as a whole, but I've replayed the scene several times and they sure look black to me!

 

Sabrejet

 

Nice catch! I must admit all the jump boots in SPR were black and redyed brown.

[willysmb44]

I can’t fault the things that a movie company simply cannot get their hands on (really, why do people think they should have somehow found and restored several German tanks for “A Bridge Too Far”?) Nitpickery aside, there are a few things that I can think of off the top of my head that are obvious to many in the public”

• In "We were soldiers", Mel Gibson is at Benning with the jump towers in the background at night and you can see the strobe lights of MP cars just over the rise (I suppose to keep people from driving through there during filming). They had slowly rotating lights on cop cars in the 60s.
  
• "Jarhead" where the Hispanic guy whips out the photo of his pregnant wife (saying it's what a real beautiful woman should look like) the photo is shown facing the right, then in the next shot, facing the opposite direction! I still don't understand how they messed that up.
  
• Toy (Japanese MGC plug fire cap gun) ‘M-16s’ used a lot in “Full Metal jacket”, even by principal actors. Look at where the forward assists should be and you’ll see them clearly.
  
• There should be a capital crime of showing people having indirect fire going off right next to people with no effect. Funny how there is no shrapnel in movies.
  And a couple of general goofs you see very often in movies that drive me nuts:
  
• When ANY kind of airplane is diving or in trouble of any kind, it makes the sound of a WW2 Stuka dive bomber. That siren sound was a noise maker installed on the side in part to scare the poop out of people on the ground. A few people managed to record the sound during the war. Somehow over the years, that sound got attached to the concept of a airplane in distress. In fact, a diving airplane doesn’t make that sound at all, especially since there hasn’t been a stuka flying in over 60 years.
  
• When someone has cocked a semi-auto handgun and then points it, it automatically makes another cocking sound. Real handguns don’t rattle like that unless they’re totally worn out or some part wasn’t installed correctly.
  
• EVERYONE in the Army is a Ranger-tabbed wearer of the Combat Infantry Badge. All Air Force personnel are not only command pilots, they were missileers as well. There’s never a cook around, it seems.
  

[J_Andrews]

I took Vietnamese at DLI before going to RVN. Beyond a few words and phrases, I no longer remember enough to have even a brief dialogue, more's the pity.

 

I would observe that the Wikipedia rundown is OK, but it ignores the fact that SPELLING is not the major variation in regional Vietnamese -- it is PRONUNCIATION.

 

It is also vocabulary. I discovered the word for "marketplace" up north meant "pissoir" in Saigon. And this does not even get near the diacritical marks (NOT really "accents") and how they change the sound.

 

There are two D's in VN: the hard D and the soft D. Hard one (when written, it has a small crossbar on the vertical line) sounds like our English D. The soft varies from "zh" to "z" to "j" to "y". The sounds for L, M and N move around, according to region. For example the word for "five" can be "lam" or "nam".

 

VNese seemed extraordinarily ready and willing to embrace "borrow words". Americans called their M-113s "tracks"; VN borrowed it, as "xe-trac" ("xe" is a classifier meaning "vehicle"). A Jeep was "xe-giep". From the French "camion" for "truck", they adopted "xe-cam-yang".

[303lithgow]

I took Vietnamese at DLI before going to RVN. Beyond a few words and phrases, I no longer remember enough to have even a brief dialogue, more's the pity.

 

I would observe that the Wikipedia rundown is OK, but it ignores the fact that SPELLING is not the major variation in regional Vietnamese -- it is PRONUNCIATION.

 

It is also vocabulary. I discovered the word for "marketplace" up north meant "pissoir" in Saigon. And this does not even get near the diacritical marks (NOT really "accents") and how they change the sound.

 

There are two D's in VN: the hard D and the soft D. Hard one (when written, it has a small crossbar on the vertical line) sounds like our English D. The soft varies from "zh" to "z" to "j" to "y". The sounds for L, M and N move around, according to region. For example the word for "five" can be "lam" or "nam".

 

VNese seemed extraordinarily ready and willing to embrace "borrow words". Americans called their M-113s "tracks"; VN borrowed it, as "xe-trac" ("xe" is a classifier meaning "vehicle"). A Jeep was "xe-giep". From the French "camion" for "truck", they adopted "xe-cam-yang".

 

 

Thanks for the info. I served with a guy that stuttered bad. He was interested in the Vietnamese and learned how to speek their language fluently. The funny part is he didn't stutter in Vietnamese.

[Darktrooper]

@45ACP: He actually picked Krag that up off of a Japanese soldier, and anyone else notice the japs were wearing their helmets backwards?

 

@willysmb: Strobe lights were available at the time, albeit rare on emergency vehicles. On another website I go to there is a picture of a 1970 Ford MP sedan with Strobe lights on the roof. The Federal Signal Beacon ray that is on my 56 Ford rotates fairly fast, especially since I put the replacement motor and greased the gears.

 

@M1marksman: The tigers in Kelly's Heroes were heavily modified t-34's

 

 

You know what no one has mentioned?? the Sci-fi Channel movies!!!!!

 

Sten Guns that fire 90 rounds with-out reloading

Tiger Tanks that mysteriously look like T-34/85's

The French resistance fighters that have a russian accent

[Jonesy]

You know what no one has mentioned?? the Sci-fi Channel movies!!!!!

 

 

S.S. Doomtrooper.

 

 

That is all.

 

 

[Darktrooper]

S.S. Doomtrooper.

That is all.

 

 

How about Gargoyles?

:w00t:

[Manchu Warrior]

I recently watched the 1993 movie Geronimo: An American Legend. The movie takes place in the 1880's and while out in the desert looking for Geronimo Lt. Charles Gatewood is using, and the audience gets a very nice close up view of it, a WWII Wittnauer compass to help find his way. Just a little of the attention to detail I have learned since joining this forum. :thumbsup:

[Terry K.]

I to see many things wrong in many movies but the thing that pi**es me off the most is when ever they show the attack on Pearl Harbor with original(B&W) mobies they always show SBD2's diving as Japanese dive bombers :disgust:

Terry

[mower66]

30 rnd mags.....Apocalypse Now

British gas cans on tanks....British road markings......well it was filmed in Britain....Full Metal Jacket

British '58 web gear for Iraqi's....Three Kings

Was dissapointed that,seeing as Ridley Scott managed to get real Blackhawks, that he didnt go the whole hog and film it in Somalia.... :w00t:

[J_Andrews]

A couple years ago when I was in southern Kalifornia, I visited the Western Costume Co's military specialists. Among other examples they cited of movies "going wrong" because of choices made by the Directors and/or Art Directors (both lots more interested in "The LOOK" than realism or authenticity) was the recent "The Alamo" versus the 1960s John Wayne rendition.

 

They had worked on the newer one and researched and assembled prototypes of uniforms and gear that were CORRECT. These samples were then "paraded" for the approval of movie staff. In doing their homework they were amazed to discover that the John Wayne opus had been 90% correct. So their stuff was like the John Wayne stuff with (they hoped) a 10% improvement.

 

Alas, it was ALL rejected by the new movie's staffers. WHY? Because it LOOKED TOO MUCH LIKE THE JOHN WAYNE STUFF, period. Everything had to LOOK different, no matter if it was WRONG. So the uniforms wound up being overly dressy, wrong colors, wrong style for the time, etc., etc.

 

They had also worked on "The Patriot", the Rev War a la Mel Gibson. The Brit bad guys (in reality Banstre Tarleton's guys)

could NOT have the green coats of actual history. They HAD to be RED....because they were REDcoats, of course! And while they were at it, make their coats in the 1800-1820 style -- because they look cooler.

[Sabrejet]

Slightly distasteful or "gory" perhaps, but what about war movie gunshot hits? Apart from the more recent ultra-realistic movies which pull no punches when someone is hit, the older generation are full of extras dying "gracefully" when hit by a hi-velocity round...usually falling forward in a slo-mo balletic dive, arms aloft, rather than reeling backwards as though kicked by a mule! Also, "heroes" who get hit in the shoulder get the Corpsman/medic to slap a Carlisle dressing on the wound and manfully carry on. Yeah....right!! Know what I mean?!

 

Sabrejet :pinch:

[J_Andrews]

How about how fragmentation grenades explode in a big fireball -- rather like a gallon can of kerosene mixed with motor oil?

 

Same applies to supposed mortar and artillery strikes, land mines, etc, etc.

[Sabrejet]

As a matter of interest...what were those large, grotesque rubber chincups worn by the US "paratroopers" in The Longest Day?! They certainly weren't GI issue! Were they simply fantasy props or civilian items used for the movie?

 

Sabrejet :think:

[Garandomatic]

C'mon, guys, I thought I was bad! I count every gunshot, unless it's a full-auto. In SPR, Rieben the sniper fires 8 shots out of his 03A4 in the belltower, but I like the movie for what it is so I ignore it. There's a couple I give free passes for exceeding the maximum limit on ammunition, though. As far as the graceful slumping death of old war movies they aren't gonna show a horrible amputative explosion in a '50s movie, that ain't a blunder, it's the '50s!

 

If John Wayne actually got vietnamese language in The Green Beret, I'd settle for that much of an effort. Coulda been accented English, like other movies, you know?

 

One film that I will never forgive is Pearl Harbor. I'd sooner see models explode than gas explosions on modern nuclear, what are they, frigates?

[willysmb44]

British gas cans on tanks....British road markings......well it was filmed in Britain....Full Metal Jacket

In my mind it’s excusable )given how much they got right), but you also see Brit cans in “Generation Kill” which drove me nuts as I know they should be plastic ones. I also have noticed a lot of airsoft “M-4s” (you can spot them by the white Armalite round logos on the lower receivers) and likely airsoft SAWs used in that series as well, but they don’t look wrong other than dust covers being closed when you wouldn’t expect them to be closed on real weapons in combat.