Question about WWI Victory Medal Bars - Medical Personnel Awarded them?

[cutiger83]

I have a question about the WWI Victory Medal Bars. I have twin Great Uncles who served in WWI.

 

One Uncle was a LT with the 81st "Wildcat" Division, 323rd Infantry. According to his records, he was with the 323rd until Nov 1918 then was with the army of occupation from Dec 1918 until May 1919. According to Wikipedia, the 81st served in the Meuse-Argonne and Alsace-Lorraine. Are these the bars that he would have been entitled? Would there have been one for serving in the army of occupation?

 

The other Uncle was a doctor during the war. According to his records he was with the British Expeditionary Force from Sept 1917 - Jan 1918. He was with the American Expeditionary Forces from Feb 1918 until Sept 1918 when he died at Base Hospital #66. Did doctors get a certain bar on their medals? From what I have been able to find, the medical corps was not assigned to a certain division but I am not 100% sure about this.

 

Thanks in advance for any help...Kat

[Teamski]

According to Laslo, the 81st was only entitled to the Meuse-Argonne and Defensive Sector bars. These would have been the only ones your uncle was authorized.

 

Your other uncle, if was was indeed British, would have been entitled to the British WWI War Medal and WWI Victory Medal. Without knowing in which unit he served in with the US Army, it would be impossible to know which bars he was entitled to on the US Victory Medal. Doctors did not get special bars for service except for the campaigns in which they participated with.

 

-Ski

[cwnorma]

Kat,

 

As Ski already mentioned, your 81 DIV uncle's medal would most likely have been Meuse Argonne and Defensive Sector. I presume that the other uncle was an American doctor attached to British forces? As an MD, he could have a very interesting combination. Many of the out of the ordinary combinations seen can be attributed to auxiliary troops such as medical personnel or engineers who often served detached from their units--wherever they were required.

 

About the only way to be certain would be to get his service records. However since he died in service, and the WW1 VM didn't get issued until the early 20s, many posthumous recipients received only the base medal when the family sent off for them.

 

To answer your other question, some medical personnel were assigned to divisions, but others were Corps or Army troops who were assigned to headquarters, and could be detached for service where needed. Within the division, most medical personnel were assigned to the "Sanitary Train" however, some units had their own indigenous medical personnel.

 

Remember, the Division rule is only a guide for VM bars. The bars were issued based on the actions in which the individual soldier participated. It is certainly true that in most cases the average soldier will have the same bars for the unit he was assigned. But it is also possible that he did not participate in certain actions such as if he was wounded during a previous action and was recovering or, if he was a replacement who arrived to late to qualify for the bar.

[Johnnymac]

I have a question about the WWI Victory Medal Bars. I have twin Great Uncles who served in WWI.

 

One Uncle was a LT with the 81st "Wildcat" Division, 323rd Infantry. According to his records, he was with the 323rd until Nov 1918 then was with the army of occupation from Dec 1918 until May 1919. According to Wikipedia, the 81st served in the Meuse-Argonne and Alsace-Lorraine. Are these the bars that he would have been entitled? Would there have been one for serving in the army of occupation?

 

The other Uncle was a doctor during the war. According to his records he was with the British Expeditionary Force from Sept 1917 - Jan 1918. He was with the American Expeditionary Forces from Feb 1918 until Sept 1918 when he died at Base Hospital #66. Did doctors get a certain bar on their medals? From what I have been able to find, the medical corps was not assigned to a certain division but I am not 100% sure about this.

 

Thanks in advance for any help...Kat

Hi your first Uncle would have received the Meuse-Argonne and Defensive Sector clasps, There was no battle clasp for Alsace-Lorraine. (Alsace-Lorraine and many other campaigns fell under the umbrella of the Defensive Sector clasp). The Army talked about have a clasp "Army of Occupation" but was it was never adopted.

 

Your second uncle the Doctor, was considered a noncombatant and he would have been given the victory medal with a Service clasp, "FRANCE" on it. (Also read - Genave Convention Doctor Noncombatant).

 

Regards JM

[cutiger83]

Everyone,

 

Thanks so much for your help. I really appreciate it. To answer a few questions, as I stated in the first post, these two uncles were twins. They were born here in SC and enlisted in 1917. I sent off for both of their records but have been unable to get any of their records. Last spring, I took a picture of both of their headstones which lists their basic military careers. It has their enlistment dates and other items. I am attaching a picture of their graves with the information. Hopefully the picture won't be too small. I found out that the doctor's items were donated to a hospital here in SC. I tried to see them over the summer but the hospital was having major renovations. I am hoping to get back down there and take pictures after the museum at the hospital is set up again.

 

Thanks again. I really appreciate it...Kat

 

[cutiger83]

Other brother:

 

[atb]

Hi your first Uncle would have received the Meuse-Argonne and Defensive Sector clasps, There was no battle clasp for Alsace-Lorraine. (Alsace-Lorraine and many other campaigns fell under the umbrella of the Defensive Sector clasp). The Army talked about have a clasp "Army of Occupation" but was it was never adopted.

 

Your second uncle the Doctor, was considered a noncombatant and he would have been given the victory medal with a Service clasp, "FRANCE" on it. (Also read - Genave Convention Doctor Noncombatant).

 

Regards JM

I believe Medical Department soldiers received the same bars as all other soldiers if they qualified for them. For example, a doctor who participated in the Meuse Argonne Offensive would receive the "Meuse Argonne" bar. Medical Department soldiers received decorations for heroism in combat. Please show the citation in the US regulations for the WW1 Victory Medal to support your statement.

[jihigg]

Everyone,

 

Thanks so much for your help. I really appreciate it. To answer a few questions, as I stated in the first post, these two uncles were twins. They were born here in SC and enlisted in 1917. I sent off for both of their records but have been unable to get any of their records. Last spring, I took a picture of both of their headstones which lists their basic military careers. It has their enlistment dates and other items. I am attaching a picture of their graves with the information. Hopefully the picture won't be too small. I found out that the doctor's items were donated to a hospital here in SC. I tried to see them over the summer but the hospital was having major renovations. I am hoping to get back down there and take pictures after the museum at the hospital is set up again.

 

Thanks again. I really appreciate it...Kat

 

 

Hi, In response to your comment, "I sent off for both of their records but have been unable to get any of their records", I too started the hunt for my great uncle's records. My research is difficult, but I did have some luck requesting the burial records for him. I requested his burial records from the following address:

 

National Archives

Textual Reference Branch (Old Military Service Records)

8601 Adelphi Road

College Park MD 20740-6001

 

It is a great amount information you can gather from the burial records, not just where they are buried (which you already know). I received 50 pages of correspondence, memos, and documents. There were even copies of handwritten letters from my great-grandparents begging for his remains to be returned to the states. It took 3 years to get him back. How sad to find their letters over those 3 years. But the letters are the only thing I have of the two of them and I treasure having them, even though they are so sad. I cannot even imagine their pain.

 

The documents also included graphic details about the wounds he received.

 

In my request I included his name, army serial number, and where he served. I got this information from ancestry.com when I searched for his military records and found his draft registration. If you do write them just include as much info as you have to help them locate the records. I find it interesting that my first request to the national archives in kansas city just about came up blank, but that the above address made me feel like I won the lottery. Good luck to you :-)

hope this helps, jill

[Johnnymac]

I believe Medical Department soldiers received the same bars as all other soldiers if they qualified for them. For example, a doctor who participated in the Meuse Argonne Offensive would receive the "Meuse Argonne" bar. Medical Department soldiers received decorations for heroism in combat. Please show the citation in the US regulations for the WW1 Victory Medal to support your statement.

 

Hi thanks for the come back.

I do agree with you that Doctors would get awards for the deeds under fire./ But all the field hospitals I have read about during WW I were placed somewhere in the rear away from Artillery fire, which happen on a daily bases. Know, Corpsmen is a whole another story.

 

Non-combatant[/b][/b] is a military and legal term describing civilians not engaged in combat. It also includes (Geneva Conventions Protocol I, persons, such as medical personnel and military chaplains (who are regular soldiers but are protected because of their function) and soldiers who are hors de combat.

 

Hors de Combat, literally meaning "outside the fight," is a French term used in diplomacy and international law to refer to soldiers who are incapable of performing their military function. Examples include a downed fighter pilot, as well as the sick, wounded, detained, or otherwise disabled. Soldiers hors de combat are normally granted special protections according to the laws of war, sometimes including prisoner of war status.

 

THE ARMY CONSIDER Medical personnel non combatant until 1945, and bet a lot of them saw action during WW II.

 

The Combat Infantryman Badge (CIB) is the U.S. Army combat service recognition decoration awarded to soldiers—enlisted men and officers (commissioned and warrant) holding colonel rank or below, who personally fought in active ground combat while an assigned member of either an infantry or a Special Forces unit, of brigade size or smaller, any time after 6 December 1941. Primary recognition of the combat service and sacrifices of the infantrymen who would likely be wounded or killed in numbers disproportionate to those of soldiers from the Army’s other service branches.

 

The Combat Medical Badge is a decoration of the United States Army which was first created in January 1945. The badge is awarded to any member of the Army Medical Department, at the rank of Colonel or below, who are assigned or attached to a medical unit (company or smaller size) which provides medical support to a ground combat arms unit during any period in which the unit was engaged in active ground combat.

 

Regards (JM) P.S. If my attachment for G.O.# 48 does not post I'll repost it. it is from Alexander Lasko's 2nd Ed book page 122