pfrost Posted October 16, 2019 Share #101 Posted October 16, 2019 These two items came together from a flea market. A Robbin's wing like the OP and a vintage photo of a pilot in a transitional uniform (WWI high collar/branch of service/1919 pattern Adam style wing). A similar wing is shown in one of the Pinks and Greens books. I have seen a few of these, and never one that I thought was a fake. Not EVERY wing has a fake (or museum quality reproduction).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-17Guy Posted October 16, 2019 Share #102 Posted October 16, 2019 Great looking wing. I have one, it is posted on Bob’s website in the between the wars section. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-17Guy Posted October 22, 2019 Share #103 Posted October 22, 2019 Nice to see a, rare, high quality wing badge can still command a proper price... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thwingmarty Posted October 22, 2019 Share #104 Posted October 22, 2019 I'm really glad I found one at the SOS last year for what I paid for it. I was surprised the WWI Robbins wing that sold on ebay last week with a couple of photos didn't sell for more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffP Posted January 22, 2021 Share #105 Posted January 22, 2021 Focusing back on the topic of WW1 Naval Aviator wings: Pictured below is one of the first Naval Aviator pilot badges called the "Type 1" summitted in September 1917 to the U.S. Bureau of Navigation (BuNav) for approval. Made of Sterling Silver rather than gold or bronze, they had gold 'U.S.' letters on the center shield. These were designed by Lt. Henry Reuterdahl USNRF while assisting Lt. Commander John H. Towers (Naval Aviator No. 3) in collaboration with Bailey, Banks and Biddle on what would eventually be the first "official" Naval Aviator badge. The letters "U.S" on the center shield had been approved by the Secretary of the Navy on 7 September 1917 in Change 12 to Naval Uniform Regulations of 1913; however, the letters 'U.S" would soon be omitted on 12 October 1917 in Change 14 to Uniform Regulations. The first "official" Naval Aviator badge was approved by BuNav in November 1917. Purchased from Bailey, Banks and Biddle, they were made of 14k-gold with non-pierced anchor flukes and delivered to BuNav in December 1917. The first 282 badges were then engraved with the Aviator's number, his name and branch of service (Navy or Marine Corps) and released to the pilots on 19 January 1918. The engraving of each individual’s name, Naval Aviator number, and branch of service was also discontinued sometime during World War I, yet gold wings crafted by Bailey, Banks and Biddle would be presented to every new Naval Aviator until April of 1924 when Curtis D. Wilbur, Secretary of the Navy ordered their issue stopped. At that time, slightly over three thousand had been issued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thwingmarty Posted January 22, 2021 Share #106 Posted January 22, 2021 Cliff, were the letters on this wing stamped as part of the wing or applied separately? It looks like full bases behind the letters rather than voids typically seen behind the letters on Air Service wings. Marty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffP Posted January 22, 2021 Share #107 Posted January 22, 2021 Marty, I fail to see what you do but can assure you that the center shield itself does not have any imprints or "bases" behind the letters. The letters "U.S." were applied separately and they are gold. Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bschwartz Posted January 22, 2021 Share #108 Posted January 22, 2021 Marty, I see what you're seeing but I think it's a trick of the camera and the lighting. Cliff was kind enough to share some photos of this wing for my site. They're from a slightly different angle and in the pictures on my site you can see that the full US are not imprinted into the wings and then the top piece applied. I believe that's just solder under the US but that's just judging from the two different pictures. Here's the image from my site: Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thwingmarty Posted January 22, 2021 Share #109 Posted January 22, 2021 Cliff, In the photo, where the letters touch the shield, there appears to be a solid line around the base of the letters in many areas. It shows best along the upper edges of the S. It is probably due to the soldier used to attach the letters. While large, beautifully clear images like this can show incredible detail, they can also exaggerate any imperfections like tiny bits of soldier that would never be seen with the naked eye. I have to remind myself sometimes that what I can see in a wing that is almost 20" wide on my computer screen would be invisible on an actual 2.75" wide wing. It is very interesting that this wing from 1917 has the small shoulder feathers/berries. On Bob's website, your WWI wing from Dan S. Dunham also has small shoulder feathers while ones from BB&B do not. Is anyone aware of any BB&B wings (or non-hallmarked wings) like Cliff's without the attached U.S.? Marty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffP Posted January 24, 2021 Share #110 Posted January 24, 2021 On 1/22/2021 at 2:47 PM, 5thwingmarty said: Since the BB&B (non-hallmarked) badge from 1917 has small shoulder feathers/berries, why don't later examples made by BB&B not have any feather/berries in the shoulder? A little history on how Naval Aviator wings went through their early developed before any "official" wings were finally approved and purchased by the Navy in 1917 might hold the answer: On 19 July 1917, Lieutenant Commander John H. Towers, Assistant Director, Chief of Naval Operations (Aviation Section) sent a request to the Bureau of Navigation (BuNav) seeking approval for a special device (wings) to be worn by Naval Aviators on their uniform to indicate they were pilots. BuNav agreed. Towers then asked nautical artist Lt. Henry Reuterdahl to help him with the design. Reuterdahl presented several diagrams to Towers who selected what he considered the best. He then sent copies to Bailey, Banks & Biddle and other makers for comment or modification with the possibility of getting a contract from the Navy. Using Reuterdahl's designs, BB&B offered to summit a silver sample with 'U.S.' letters in gold on the shield. A representative delivered it on 28 August 1917. Note: It should be mentioned here that contrary to any earlier belief, BuNav first considered all silver wings for Naval Aviators similar to those worn by Army pilots but silver was later rejected because it did not blend well when worn with Navy dress whites. Next to be considered were bronze wings followed by gold. A final decision was made by BuNav in favor of 14k-gold "official" Naval Aviator wings because gold would be a better match with the rest of the gold braid on all Naval uniforms. So why do later examples made by BB&B not have small shoulder feathers/berries in the shoulder? In addition to that, why were the letters 'U.S.' later omitted? First of all, in August 1917 an "official" design was still in its earliest stage of developed. The following may help to explain in better detail why certain changes were made. On 7 September 1917 Naval Aviator wings were finally authorized by the Secretary of the Navy with Change 12 to Naval Uniform Regulations dated 1913. The wings were described as: "a Naval Aviators device, with winged non-pierced foul anchor two and three-quarter inches wide with letters 'U.S.' is hereby adopted to be worn by qualified Naval Aviators. This device will be issued by the Bureau of Navigation to officers and men of the Navy and Marine Corps who qualify as Naval Aviators and will be worn on the left breast." In a letter dated 26 September 1917, from Reuterdahl to BB&B he suggested they make minor changes including a row of stars on the shield; however, BB&B voiced an objection because it would be contrary to the laws of heraldry. In a letter dated 28 September 1917 from Reuterdahl to BB&B he agreed with their objection about adding a row of stars on the shield. He also recommended that BB&B simplify the wings by boldly chasing (engraving) and reducing the number of feathers in each wing, noting that, "most naval ornaments are too fine and not broad enough in character.” Note: By Reuterdahl suggesting that BB&B boldly chase and reduce the number of feathers in each wing. . . and that the wings were not broad enough in character answer the question why later examples of BB&B wings do not have shoulder berries/feathers? I suspect it might. In a letter dated 5 October 1917, Reuterdahl recommended that BB&B make a change to the basic design by adding a slight curve to the body and feathers. He summarized his remarks by saying, “My idea has been to reduce all corners so that there will be no points which might catch in the clothing.” On 12 October 1917 the proposed design for Naval Aviator wings was modified by Change 14 to Navy Uniform Regulations of 1913 which reads, "The device for Naval Aviators will be a winged foul anchor, but the letters 'U.S.' given in Change 12 to Uniform Regulations dated 7 September 1917 have been omitted. — 26 December 1917: Several more design changes were made during October and November before the final design for the first "official" wings were approved and purchased from Bailey, Banks and Biddle by the Navy. They were made of 14k-gold and the order was confirmed by a telegram the company sent to BuNav on this date indicating the insignia were being shipped. Here is an example of the first "official" 14k-gold Naval Aviator wings made by BB&B under Navy contract courtesy of Russ Wilson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thwingmarty Posted January 26, 2021 Share #111 Posted January 26, 2021 Cliff, Thank you for all of that information. Here is a scanned page from the BB&B design archives. I don't know what date this was done, and two of the three Naval wings are extremely faint on the drawing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thwingmarty Posted January 26, 2021 Share #112 Posted January 26, 2021 I don't have any actual BB&B wings to add to this thread, but thought I would post the couple of WWI pattern Naval wings I have. The top is a Noble pattern and the bottom is a Link-pattern Amcraft, stamped FILLED. I had hoped to add a full-sized, hallmarked Noble to the collection this week, but alas my pockets were not deep enough for that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted January 26, 2021 Share #113 Posted January 26, 2021 Here is a pair from a Naval Aviator who earned his wings in early 1919. Early Robbins wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thwingmarty Posted June 8, 2021 Share #114 Posted June 8, 2021 Although John's photos from his original post have been lost from this thread due to one of the system upgrades, I believe these photos were from that wing's listing on ebay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thwingmarty Posted June 8, 2021 Share #115 Posted June 8, 2021 So a few years ago Russ Wilson shared this 2" Pilot wing in another thread, same style of wing as Paul's Aircrew but with the older Robbins Attleboro hallmark. At that time, everyone seemed to agree that Russ had identified the maker of that style of wing. Ron Burkey has even started identifying these 2" Pilot wings as being from Robbins when he lists them on his website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thwingmarty Posted June 8, 2021 Share #116 Posted June 8, 2021 When I found the images of the Robbins hallmarked Navigator, I also found images from another old ebay listing for an Aircrew wing. It is the same pattern as John's Navigator, and also bears the same "Flying R" hallmark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thwingmarty Posted June 8, 2021 Share #117 Posted June 8, 2021 Now, the whole reason I am dredging all this up is that I now have one of these wings in my collection, this 3" Pilot wing in the same pattern and also bearing the "Flying R" hallmark. I believe all these wings show that this relatively common pattern of wing was produced by Robbins during WWII to meet the requirements for government issued wings, and after the war they continued producing some of them but put their new hallmark on a few of them. The Pilot, Aircrew and Navigator wings all remained the same until 1951 when the Navigator got redone, and Robbins began using the "Flying R" hallmark at least as early as 1950. So can we all affirm that John was correct in his identification of this pattern of issue wings being the product of Robbins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thwingmarty Posted July 6, 2021 Share #118 Posted July 6, 2021 I solemnly swear that I did not pilfer this from Russ' collection. Just like his, it was made using the same striker as they used for the Aerial Gunner wings. In comparing it to a couple of non-hallmarked (NHM) Pilot wings in this pattern, made with the correct striker, this hallmarked example is just over a gram lighter (5.97 vs. 7.01 grams). That doesn't sound like much, but but it can be felt when picking them up. In comparing the two NHM Pilot wings with this hallmarked one, the Aerial Gunner and an Aircrew wing, the two NHM Pilot wings are made from visibly thicker metal than the other three. I don't know if that is consistent for all these wings or just the examples I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thwingmarty Posted August 24, 2021 Share #119 Posted August 24, 2021 Here is another one that was made into a bracelet. It does not appear to have ever had pin fittings, and the back looks to have been polished and the back cleaned up to remove the sharp edges. It is silver finished not gold as my pictures imply. Note it was also made with the Aerial Gunner reverse die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff41st Posted January 17, 2022 Share #120 Posted January 17, 2022 Thought I would revive this thread just in case anyone is considering bidding on these wings like I was. Another one of the SMILO pattern wings stamped with "ROBBINS CO ATTLEBORO" currently up for auction on eBay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/275118457489?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 Thanks to the US Militaria Forum and its many fine contributors for saving me $$$ again 😁 Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtnman Posted January 17, 2022 Share #121 Posted January 17, 2022 Well done Jeff. That is part of our responsibility as we gain knowledge and ability to research wings, keep each other safe under the Golden Rule... Excellent post sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff41st Posted January 17, 2022 Share #122 Posted January 17, 2022 Thanks Mel. Here are a couple of the auction photos for future reference. Should have posted them initially... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted January 18, 2022 Share #123 Posted January 18, 2022 Personally, I have no desire to rock the boat, or push strongly against the Forum grain on this Service Pilot example. But I would like to mention, the Robbins Co. continued to produce military winged badges well into the 1960’s; and commercial airlines badges well into the 1970’s, while the SMILO Co was short-lived and disappeared quickly. It was fairly common to loan or purchase another companies dies to reduce the overhead of making new dies... Towards the the end of WWII, when the need for additional aviation badges declined, numerous smaller insignia producing companies were quickly absorbed by the “Big Dog” manufactures. Also, there was a fairly common practice of loaning wing-dies from one company to another, in order to quickly fill an order. Since this Smilo pattern Service Pilot wing has such a nicely marked Robbins Co. hallmark, might I suggest it may indeed be an authentic WWll period badge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtnman Posted January 18, 2022 Share #124 Posted January 18, 2022 You know Russ, After I got home and looked at this on the computer, and that little tickle in the back of my mind sparked up. I found my Robbins company pre-World War II wing and it is not a match for the lettering and spacing. But I'm still looking for my Robbins Company Air corps Ferrying command Wing to check the insignia for a match regarding the lettering and spacing. Will update Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bschwartz Posted January 18, 2022 Share #125 Posted January 18, 2022 If you look at the hallmark on this Ferrying Command wing from Tod's collection shown on my site the markings are not a match. That's not to say that the markings on the Service Pilot wing are 100% fake but I've never seen a Robbins mark like that before on any of their other badges. They switched to the winged "R" hallmark on some of their later pieces. I don't know if they retained the "Robbins Co" hallmark post-war. If I came across one of these at the show I think my gut reaction would be to pass but I've been fooled so many times in this hobby that I always leave the door open a bit because new information seems to constantly come up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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