hink441 Posted February 17, 2013 Share #51 Posted February 17, 2013 Hi Cliff, I think this picture is in the book by Ron Willis and Tom Carmichael on Navy Wings. I am at work now, so I don't have my copy handy, but I thought the picture had names with it. I wonder if the info in the book regarding these Aviators is possibly not accurate? Thanks for posting that great picture!! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hink441 Posted February 17, 2013 Share #52 Posted February 17, 2013 Pictured below is a photograph of the first ten USN enlisted pilot trainees who were selected to begin 18-months training at Pensacola, FL beginning on January 1, 1916. These ten were from the crew of the USS North Carolina. The picture was taken on March 21, 1917. Unfortunately, the name of these ten men have never been confirmed. The second class entered pilot training in June, 1917. The book "United States Navy Wings of Gold" has these aviators named. Here is the list; "Standing left to right: Charles L. Allen, Naval Aviator #110-1/2; Walter D. Bonner, Naval Aviator #50; George Enos, Naval Aviator #61; Augustus A. Bressman, Naval Aviator #44; Oliver P. Kilmer, Naval Aviator #70; Alfred Hayes, Naval Aviator #69. Seated left to right: Thomas H. Murphy, Naval Aviator #51; John T. Sunderman, Naval Aviator #55-1/2; Guy Mclaughlin, Naval Aviator #90; Giochino Varini, Naval Aviator #62. Courtesy of the U.S. Naval Historical Center Washington, D.C. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffP Posted February 17, 2013 Share #53 Posted February 17, 2013 Hi Chris, While doing some research yesterday for B-17GUY (John Ferguson), I found the picture in the Fall 1988 edition of Naval Aviation Museum FOUNDATION magazine, Volume 2, Number 9. Thank you for the update. Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uniforms of the Day Posted March 16, 2013 Share #54 Posted March 16, 2013 I have a set, identical to Pfrosts that are also Robbins marked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Costa Posted May 31, 2014 Share #55 Posted May 31, 2014 another addition. drop catch-- gull winged?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Costa Posted May 31, 2014 Share #56 Posted May 31, 2014 back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artk2002 Posted November 12, 2014 Share #57 Posted November 12, 2014 I wish that I had a set of wings to share, but I can share pictures of one of the wearers. In the list of NAOs above, LCDR Charles G. McCord was my grandfather. There are two pictures of him taken in late '26 and early '27 at Pensacola NAS. The final picture is on board USS Wright (AV-1), the first seaplane tender. He started as an engineer and was promoted to Air Exec some time in '28. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Costa Posted September 10, 2015 Share #58 Posted September 10, 2015 another recent score-- ww2 navy observer made by robbins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtnman Posted September 10, 2015 Share #59 Posted September 10, 2015 Just plain beautiful find AND WONDERFUL EARLY DROP IN PIN CATCH! I REALLY like Robbins' material, Quality Wings and a great Name they have made for themselves, especially with the ACFC Wings that pilots who started off the war donned under the Lend Lease Act. You are really hitting the target Buddy with these awesome finds! Please send some close ups to me on my regular email I believe you have Buddy, for my library. Thanks ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted October 11, 2016 Share #60 Posted October 11, 2016 First, I want to give credit to B17-John and Cliff who (apparently) worked out some of these details studying a wide range of Robbins USN wings and who came up with this information. I am only building upon the work that John did and transmitted to me the last time we were at Russ' house looking at wings. John (and Cliff) are the giants, who I am only standing on...Recently, this beauty of a WWI vintage Robbins wing joined my collection. It has the 3 Robbins' hallmarks that seem to have been used on wings around WWI, the "Tiffany-style catch" and is in 10K. A stunning wing and worthy of some close up shots. Pay special attention to the details in the shield... I am not 100% sure that the use of the Robbins' 3-hallmarks are anything other than an attempt to copy or imitate the British and European style of proofs. Perhaps people much smarter than I can expand on this, but it does seem to be pretty clear that these types of hallmarks were used on WWI wings (both USN and US Army badges), and perhaps later than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted October 11, 2016 Share #61 Posted October 11, 2016 Some close ups of the hallmark and catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted October 11, 2016 Share #62 Posted October 11, 2016 Apparently, Cliff and John noticed that while this finely feathered pattern wings (with 3 hallmark and Tiffany-style catch) were probably WWI vintage. On the other hand, other Robbins wings were in this very similar pattern, appeared to be manufactured much later. This includes the NANCO and PANCRAFT marked wings. In fact, I have always felt that despite the general belief that NANCO and PANCRAFT are 20's and 30's vintage, that they are actually more WWII vintage. I have found NANCO (but not PANCRAFT) wings from WWII and post-WWII veterans. It was my belief that NANCO and PANCRAFT (and perhaps some others) were actually Robbins' made wings being sold under another company. It seems that John and Cliff found evidence that the WWI vintage Robbins wing dies had been recut for the NANCO and PANCRAFT wings sometime after WWI.First, a line up of the WWI wing, a NANCO wing and a later (probably WWII vintage variation) of Robbins' made wings. Pay special attention to the shield of the top two wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted October 11, 2016 Share #63 Posted October 11, 2016 Cliff and John told me that they noticed that the vertical and horizontal lines in the WWI wing were very fine, but had clearly been reworked in the later wings. The lines are now more broad and less delicate. The may have also noticed some other die variations, but i will leave that for them to discuss. In my collection I have a couple of NANCO wings and a couple of non-marked wings in this same pattern. You can see that the lines in the WWI wing are very delicate, while the later wings have been reworked. A comparison of the WWII wing is also included. It is my understanding that this reworking of the die happened sometime in the 20's or 30's. Also note that the back of the wings are pretty much the same. What you no longer (apparently) see is the Tiffany-style catch and the 3 hallmarks. I believe I have seen this pattern wing marked as NANCO, PANCRAFT, Robbins and unmarked. But I only have the NANCO an unmarked versions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted October 11, 2016 Share #64 Posted October 11, 2016 The backs of the wings, showing various Robbins or NANCO hallmarks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted October 11, 2016 Share #65 Posted October 11, 2016 I also have a small collection of the 2 and 1 inch wings. Here are 3 different variations in the 1 inch wing. These wings were (probably) worn on the hat and used well into WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted October 11, 2016 Share #66 Posted October 11, 2016 The backs. I don't know if these can be dated like the larger wings. In the 3 or 4 versions of these wings in my collection, I have some that are not hallmarked, hallmarked with Robbins and one with the 3 hallmarks. All seem to have a "drop-in style" catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted October 11, 2016 Share #67 Posted October 11, 2016 Some close ups of the hallmarks. I suspect that there are other Robbins variations of USN wings. But I did want to share what John and Cliff worked out, using my own wings from the collection. It seems pretty clear that there was a progression of USN aviator wings that could be seen by reworking of a well used die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted October 11, 2016 Share #68 Posted October 11, 2016 For reasons left unstated (but I suspect well understood), I am now including a "copyright" watermark on my posted images. You are welcome to "fair use" of these images, but not commercial reproduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MastersMate Posted October 11, 2016 Share #69 Posted October 11, 2016 In heraldry, horizontal finely scribed lines represent blue (chief) and the finely scribed vertical lines represent red (pales). The space between the red would be silver or white. The national shield color scheme.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kropotkin Posted October 11, 2016 Share #70 Posted October 11, 2016 Some very fine and handsome wings there, Patrick. Jealous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcatter Posted October 11, 2016 Share #71 Posted October 11, 2016 Great infos and very fine wings, thank you Patrick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted October 11, 2016 Share #72 Posted October 11, 2016 Interesting study.Thank you for sharing your info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bschwartz Posted October 12, 2016 Share #73 Posted October 12, 2016 A fascinating study Patrick, thank you for sharing. The 10k wing at the top is stunning. This made me break my wings out of the case for closer analysis. Always fun to learn something new about wings you've had for a while. I've always been partial to those Navy wings with the downward pointing feathers in the shoulders instead of the berries. A unique design and one that I usually pick up whenever I see one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted April 4, 2017 Share #74 Posted April 4, 2017 Here is a 10K marked (but tests out at 12K) 2 inch wing to add to this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted May 9, 2018 Share #75 Posted May 9, 2018 I'm certain that most wing collectors who've been in the hobby for a while will recognize the feathering pattern of these shirt-size wings as relatively common and almost always distinguishable by their very small raised "STERLING" mark and lack of any hallmark on the reverse. So, after seeing and handling dozens of these handsome two-inch gems over the years, I was pleasantly surprised to find a Pilot wing example with an incised "Robbins Co." hallmark stamped on the back. Check out the badge in the middle of the image below. Even though the badge was meant to be a pilot wing, as noted above, it looks like they made a production mistake and used an Aerial Gunner die on the reverse (as seen below). Anyway, I believe this might be a significant tidbit of info in furthering the identity of this wing pattern. Your ideas and opinions are always welcome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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