1st MAC Gold Cannon Varient "Is It Legit?

[Metalstud2003]

OK, I had alot of people asked me to post a higher quality photo of this 1st MAC Gold Cannon Varient. So here they are. This was my lasted find a couple of weeks back. Thanks for looking and thank you for your opinions. My orginal post was "is it ligit". I believe this to be the real deal. And the price was right.

[Metalstud2003]

Sorry, should be

"Is it Legit" Been a long day.

[CUBUSMC]

Sorry, should be

"Is it Legit" Been a long day.

 

 

No, pretty sure this patch with gold cannons was only made by one manufacturer and it was a mistake as far as the cannon placement. I believe this patch is a repro, made to fool collectors. - Jeff

[CUBUSMC]

No, pretty sure this patch with gold cannons was only made by one manufacturer and it was a mistake as far as the cannon placement. I believe this patch is a repro, made to fool collectors. - Jeff

 

You know, I should probably explain my answer a bit better. I too saw this on e-bay a week or so ago. But then when I looked at the sellers other items, it looked to me like he had several patches that were made very similarly and probably repros of harder to find patches. Secondly, it is definitely a different manufacturer than the patch that is known to be real. So why then would two companys make a patch with off set cannons. When I looked at it, I kinda wanted it to be real, so that I could bid on a neat variation, but then logic overtook my decision and I did not bid. I think it would have gone a lot higher had a lot of people thought it was real. Just my opinion, but I have been collecting Marine shoulder patches since the early 70's and I have never seen this one or one made the same way. Respectfully - Jeff

[Metalstud2003]

Interesting. This patch passes the light test and burn test.

[CUBUSMC]

Interesting. This patch passes the light test and burn test.

 

As long as it is 100% cotton thread, it will pass the burn test and I feel the people who want to fool someone will find cotton thread. You can still buy all cotton thread at a lot of places. As far as the glow test, well I am not an authority on what really makes a patch glow. And from the looks of some of the feedback on the forum, it is confusing to a lot of people. I don't believe raw cotton thread will glow. Again, I just don't think it is a vintage patch for several reasons. Now if someone has some ideas why it may be real, I welcome the input, as I love learning more about the hobby. I have now seen several patches that I could not prove either real or fake and that is when I just use my gut feeling. - Jeff

[Patchhouse2]

I would welcome other comments concerning if the basic patch is good or bad. However, on the gold crossed cannons. I initially stayed away from this piece thinking the "off center" crossed cannons were a repo or manufacturer's error. After years of looking at different pieces containing the gold crossed cannons I was finally convinced that the all the pieces consist of "off center" gold crossed cannons. I would have to check my piece but I believe the "off center" is not directly 12 o'clock but a little up and left of center.

 

While repo's could exist in the basic patch. just because the cannons' or off center does not make the piece bad.

 

In the variation of the white crossed cannons, they are appropriately centered.

[Allan H.]

My reasoning for thinking that this is a reproduction can be made in four points-

1- The color of the cannons is a muted yellow where ones that I know to be original are a far more decided gold tone.

2- the return thread on the back side of the cannons is the exact same color as the front thread. Return thread is normally white or gree, and has also been some unusual colors like pink, purple brown and black, but I have never seen one where the front thread and the return thread were exactly the same.

3- the shape of the cannons themselves. These cannons are actually quite crude looking and have no uniformity of detail. I don't like it.

4- the fact that this patch was done on this tye of manufactured patch. The weave is rather distinct and is not what I have encountered in known originals. The vast majority of the fakes out there are original WWII vintage 1st MAC Supply patches where the cannons were added later, so doing burn or blacklight tests is futile.

 

Allan

[Metalstud2003]

Interesting, I thank all of you for your imput. I looked at 2 photos of this patch posted in this forum titled." Most rare USMC patches. If you look at the two cannon they also are somewhat crude and the thread appears to be yellow. I am really caught up on this one? :think:

[CUBUSMC]

Well the patch on the other thread, "Most Rare USMC Insignia" Is the original design of this insignia. It was made with the offset cannons and you can tell that the cannons were part of the original design and not added. That patch is original. I have had this same insignia in my collection for years. Prior to this year I have never seen another design of this same patch with the gold offset cannons. You can see that this patch sold on Ebay for over $400. That is probably why this patch is now being reproduced. Anyway, I am convinced it is a repro.

[mortaydc60]

Well the patch on the other thread, "Most Rare USMC Insignia" Is the original design of this insignia. It was made with the offset cannons and you can tell that the cannons were part of the original design and not added. That patch is original. I have had this same insignia in my collection for years. Prior to this year I have never seen another design of this same patch with the gold offset cannons. You can see that this patch sold on Ebay for over $400. That is probably why this patch is now being reproduced. Anyway, I am convinced it is a repro.

 

 

To me the biggest tell that the patch is a repro as Allan and others have stated is at first glance, it is off center but not off center in the right way; it should be off on the right only and the left cannon well inside the center while the right is outside the line. This makes it much easier for the beginner to determine if real. Mort

[tredhed2]

To add to Allan's excellent points, I might add that there are too many loose cables on the back of the patch, and loose threads on the khaki medium. The cannon also looks as if they protrude from the back, sharing a similitary w/ Army armor force SSI that have numbers added well after the war, and for collectors. Allan's points and these of mine would indicate this is a recently made insignia. For those who want it to be real, be our guests.

 

And, for the benefit of CUBUSMC, and anyone new to the Forum, US-made WW II embroidered cloth insignia were NOT made with cotton; they were made with rayon.

[Metalstud2003]

Thanks for all the imput. Always good to learn new things....

[Chris]

Although this variation did indeed find itself on WW II USMC uniforms, it's very hard to find. I wouldn't be too horribly quick to dismiss this one completely. It has some characteristics of Australian-made variations. While it is certainly not to U.S. authorized manufacturing quality, I wish a guy could inspect this in person. I'd say the probability 65% bad, 35% good...I'd love to see it / handle it.

[Bill K]

Wasn't the seller from Croatia? That should be enough of a red flag. If I recall correctly they had a range of WW2 US patches, some rare, all made the same way. In my opinion these are difinitely fake. The reason they look decent is they are probably made on old WW2 era Soviet machines.

Bill