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Josten wings question


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Dave......thats the complete list...........no Combat Observer, no Tech Observer, nor any of the Lettered or other Specialty wings. The Combat Observer shown is one of those that appeared in the early 80s(?)....it is in fact a very well known NS Meyer pattern badge. The Tech Obs is of the same vein, once more a known Meyer pattern badge marked to Josten..........not correct.

 

In my short time of collecting I never once saw a Josten wing badge marked in the center....always lower right corner and usually at an angle. And never deeply pressed........some reserve was used in marking these badges.

 

My opinions only...................

 

Will

 

Hello Will,

Thank you for stirring my collecting juices a bit. You've peaked my interest with several of your statements and I'm hoping you'll elaborate a bit with some examples. I searched through numerous books and a couple of websites but cannot find an example of Meyer's made Observers badge identical to the earlier depicted Josten made Observers badge. Here's a comparison shot of a WWII era NS Meyer-made Observers badge and the Josten example. Was there another Meyer's pattern used for Combat Observer?

 

Russ

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Josten compared to AECO.

 

Here is an observer wing that is very close to the Josten one shown by Russ. It has the same pin and catch as well, it seems.

 

Not hallmarked, but not an NS Meyer-made wing IMHO. An unknown maker, but as I said, more similar to the Josten wing than not.

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Here is an observer wing that is very close to the Josten one shown by Russ. It has the same pin and catch as well, it seems.

 

Not hallmarked, but not an NS Meyer-made wing IMHO. An unknown maker, but as I said, more similar to the Josten wing than not.

 

Not an observer wing, but an early NS Meyer made pilot wing in the similar pattern as the Josten wing. But, note the pin and catch (and especially the hinge area) are different from the Meyer and Josten wings. The Meyer wing's pins tend to be thinner compared to the thick Josten pins.

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Will, with all respect, are you saying this Josten made Pilot badge was made in the 1980's by Meyer's because the hallmark is stamped in the center? Could I sway your opinion Sir if I told you I bought this badge in the late 1960's? Here's a Meyer/Josten comparison.

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Back of the Meyer/Josten Pilot badges.

 

Russ:

 

I have a pinback Josten pilot wing in my collection EXACTLY like your's, including Josten mark in the middle. It's a heavy badge like all Josten badges. I am certain that is is authentic. If it is not authentic, nothing in my collection is authentic.

Private Elisha Leake, Company G, 73rd Ohio Volunteer Infantry, 11th Army Corps, KIA, Gettysburg, Pa., 2 July 1863 Great Great Uncle

 

Sgt. Isaac Willis, Company G, 73rd Ohio Volunteer Infantry, 11th Army Corps, KIA, Gettysburg, Pa., 2 July 1863 Great Great Uncle

 

You Are Not Forgotten

 

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And furthermore, the problems with giving too much credence to an attribution of a given wing just because it is found in a certain box notwithstanding, I've seen several of these same design Slick back wings offered from original estates that were still in a box and labeled in the same manner as that used by Balfour during WWII.

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Dave......thats the complete list...........no Combat Observer, no Tech Observer, nor any of the Lettered or other Specialty wings. The Combat Observer shown is one of those that appeared in the early 80s(?)....it is in fact a very well known NS Meyer pattern badge. The Tech Obs is of the same vein, once more a known Meyer pattern badge marked to Josten..........not correct.

 

In my short time of collecting I never once saw a Josten wing badge marked in the center....always lower right corner and usually at an angle. And never deeply pressed........some reserve was used in marking these badges.

 

My opinions only...................

 

Will

 

Will Thanks for posting your thoughts and experience on this interesting topic. I hope you continue to share your experience with the rest of us here in the wing section. Your comments seems to have sparked and interesting discussion.

 

I hope to have the time Friday to take some photos of the pattern in question and that of the meyer pattern of which I am lucky enough to have a few variations which may help further this discussion.

 

Regards to all.

John

Always looking for Wings & Named Air Medals!

Motto: To Collect, Preserve, and Remember!

 

 

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
Hello Will,

Thank you for stirring my collecting juices a bit. You've peaked my interest with several of your statements and I'm hoping you'll elaborate a bit with some examples. I searched through numerous books and a couple of websites but cannot find an example of Meyer's made Observers badge identical to the earlier depicted Josten made Observers badge. Here's a comparison shot of a WWII era NS Meyer-made Observers badge and the Josten example. Was there another Meyer's pattern used for Combat Observer?

 

Russ

 

Russ after seeing your comparison shot I wanted to do one as well to dd some more photos to the discussion. I have placed the Meyer wings at the top with the pattern similar to Josten's (maybe the same?) but unmarked.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

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Always looking for Wings & Named Air Medals!

Motto: To Collect, Preserve, and Remember!

 

 

 

 

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Hi Guys!

 

I am not a collector of WWII wings. My only area of interest is WWI. I have had in my possession for many years a really nice WWII Josten senior pilot wing. I always presumed that it was manufactured in my home town, Princeton, Illinois, where a Josten plant existed for many years. I recently wrote the Josten's headquarters in Minneapolis, Minn. and asked them if their old Princeton facility was a point of manufacture of these during WWII. They could not answer that question, but referred me to their MTM subsidiary in the old plant at Princeton for help. My sister-in-law worked for the Josten plant for several years before it's conversion to MTM, where she continues working to this day. I asked her for help in solving the mystery, which she and a few friends at the plant were more than happy to help with the investigation. Just heard from her today. Sadly, there was no information anywhere in their files or photos to show that these wings were made in Princeton. Would any of you wing collectors have any information on where these things were made during the war? I was planning on donating the wing to the local museum if it was from Princeton, as they do not have an example in their military displays. Thanking you all in advance for your help. MHJ

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And here are the backs. The slick back wing with the brass pin is much more vaulted than the others. It is also the heaviest of the five at almost 27 grams. The other three pin-back wings are each 25 grams, and the clutch back wing is only about 17 grams. The wings have the same span, its my photo that makes them look different.

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Also, to compare similar wings from different makers, here are AECo (top), Josten (middle) and Meyer-pattern observers. There are similarities and differences between them all.

 

The Josten and Meyer wings have slightly domed centers (the horizontally lined section that protrudes out from the bordering circle. The AECo center is flat with the lined section recessed behind the edge circle.

The Josten and Meyer have similar wing feather details, but the Josten's are more fine individual angled lines while the Meyer has less defined lines. The AECo has much less feather detail.

The AEC and Meyer wings have less defined inner feathers. The Josten wing's are much sharper and extend further up.

The AECo and Meyer have a scalloped bottom edge, the Josten has a very smooth bottom edge.

The AECo and Josten wngs have similar shoulder feather details, but they are much less distinct on the Josten. The Meyer shoulder details are completely different.

The Meyer's wing feather extend much lower than the bottom edge of the observer center compared to the other two.

The AECo and Meyer wings have feathers next to the observer center that do not extend to the bottom edge of the wings, looking like they are overlapping the feathers that do. The Josten wing does not have these overlapping feathers.

 

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And here are the backs. The scalloped bottom edges of the Meyer and AECo wings are easier to see on the backs.

 

The shoulder feathers on the Meyer extend much further out towards the wing tops than on the other two.

 

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