Josten of Owatonna, MN: examples and patterns

[pfrost]

Here are the two versions of the senior pilot. It is interesting but the "earlier" pin back versions seem to show a great deal of die wear, whilst the "later" clutch back version has more detail. This suggests to me that Josten made new dies at some point. There are some minor and subtle variations, like the stippling on the area under the star.

[pfrost]

The hallmarks. The senior pilot is interesting. A number of years ago, someone one in Florida (IIRC) was selling them in droves. He clearly had a NOS cache of these wings and for a couple or 3 years, you could have bought as many Josten senior pilots as you wanted (all for about 125$, with each wing in a small wax paper envelope). All those wings were clutch back and had the mark on the side.

 

The s/p wings in pin back was much more scarce. In fact, my general impression has always been that outside of the super rare sets of WASP and Ballloon wings, the rarity of Josten could be ranked as the following from rarest to most common.

 

Most rare: Observer

Rare: Pilot (pin back)

Rare: S/P (pin back

Most common: S/P (clutch back)

Most common: C/P (clutch back)

[pfrost]

When you put the 4 wings together, you can see that the clutch back command pilot and senior pilot wings have the same detail and finish.

 

There may be a WWII command pilot version (Russ would probably have one), but if there is, I have either forgotten or haven't seen one.

 

Josten are really nice wings with some interesting variations and overlap in the (probably) WWII wings versus the (probably post KW wings).

 

 

[mtnman]

WOW Patrick! The senior wings in pin-back are RARE indeed! I searched for those wings for years and finally my patience was rewarded with the pin-back Josten wings of a World War II pilot who had met his wife and married her during the war and spent his lifetime loving her including after his retirement as a Lt. Col. After I heard their "adopted" daughter, who loved and cared for them in their twilight years, tell me the story, well love story, of their lives together,I never want his name to be separated from the wings that I purchased from his estate through her. I thus purchased a tungsten tipped inscribing pen for precious metals and permanently affixed his name and officer number to the wings, in case the paperwork and the wing were to ever be separated, they could looked him up immediately. His name was Lt. Col. John Lee Mundorff and these are his World War II senior pilot wings made by Josten and like my fellow collector Patrick's set, a rare find indeed. Well done Patrick and a beautiful set in triplicate my friend!

[Tesla]

Very nice wings! Here is a Josten clutchback Pilot wing i bought directly from the veteran: Lt Howard Baier, P 47 pilot, 391st Fighter Squadron, 366th Fighter Group. He provided me with the link to his digital scrapbook: www366fighterassociation.net/lt-baiers-scrapbook.html Patrick, do you think the side mark for Josten could be a late war transition, perhaps 44 and later? I have also included my Josten Observer wing with the center mark and thick pin hinge.

[mtnman]

Love The Observer Wing, thanks for posting! I do not remember whether I have seen an observer before, great find!

[triplecanopy]

Just wanted to compliment Patrick on the wealth of great information he has taken the time to pass on. This is exactly why I joined the Forum years ago. Your triplet examples are most appreciated. I don't collect flight wings, but much of what you have shown helps with hallmarks and details in other areas of collecting. Thank you!

[5thwingmarty]

I finally picked up a Josten observer wing so I thought I would add a couple photos. I have had some Josten-pattern observers, but no hallmarked ones until now so here is the family.

 

[5thwingmarty]

And here are the backs. The slick back wing with the brass pin is much more vaulted than the others. It is also the heaviest of the five at almost 27 grams. The other three pin-back wings are each 25 grams, and the clutch back wing is only about 17 grams. The wings have the same span, its my photo that makes them look different.

[5thwingmarty]

Also, to compare similar wings from different makers, here are AECo (top), Josten (middle) and Meyer-pattern observers. There are similarities and differences between them all.

 

The Josten and Meyer wings have slightly domed centers (the horizontally lined section that protrudes out from the bordering circle. The AECo center is flat with the lined section recessed behind the edge circle.

The Josten and Meyer have similar wing feather details, but the Josten's are more fine individual angled lines while the Meyer has less defined lines. The AECo has much less feather detail.

The AEC and Meyer wings have less defined inner feathers. The Josten wing's are much sharper and extend further up.

The AECo and Meyer have a scalloped bottom edge, the Josten has a very smooth bottom edge.

The AECo and Josten wngs have similar shoulder feather details, but they are much less distinct on the Josten. The Meyer shoulder details are completely different.

The Meyer's wing feather extend much lower than the bottom edge of the observer center compared to the other two.

The AECo and Meyer wings have feathers next to the observer center that do not extend to the bottom edge of the wings, looking like they are overlapping the feathers that do. The Josten wing does not have these overlapping feathers.

 

[5thwingmarty]

And here are the backs. The scalloped bottom edges of the Meyer and AECo wings are easier to see on the backs.

 

The shoulder feathers on the Meyer extend much further out towards the wing tops than on the other two.

 

[5thwingmarty]

Does anyone have an example of a Josten hallmarked clutch back observer wing? It seems odd to me that Josten had all of the varieties of balloon wings in clutch back, all of the varieties of pilot wings in both clutch and pin back, but I have never seen an example of a hallmarked Josten clutch back observer.

[Tesla]

I've never seen a clutchback version; but I hesitate to say it doesn't exist.

[5thwingmarty]

I was doing some Josten wing research and turned up this old thread.  In reviewing the wings shown I noticed something a bit odd about Andrew's Balloon Observer wing.  Although it has the Josten Sterling mark in the center of the back as is typical of Josten pinback wings, the style of these appears to be that typically found on Josten clutchback wings.  On all of the other pinback wings I have seen the Josten and Sterling are lined up, with the J and N being directly over the S and G.  On all the clutchback wings the J is centered over the ST and the N is centered over the NG.  

[5thwingmarty]

In looking aroung I found images of another Josten clutchback wing with the more rectangular marks, a pilot that Ron Burkey sold so they are not as unusual as I thought they were.

https://www.flyingtigerantiques.com/product-search.html?SearchOffset=16&Offset=16&Search=josten+wing&Per_Page=16&Sort_By=newest

[pfrost]

I don't recall if we discussed this on the thread.  WWII and pre-WWII Josten pilot, balloon, and observer wings all seem to have been pin back (or at least the vast majority of these wings).  The exception is that WASP wings were all clutch back.  The WWII pin back versions of the pilot, senior pilot and command pilot wing are relatively rare. 

However (and this is just my general opinion), the clutch back versions of the Josten-marked senior and command pilot wings are VERY common.  I suspect that the clutch back versions of these wings are all post KW period.  I know for many years, someone on eBay was selling NOS senior pilot clutch back wings for $125 each.  Finding a pin back pilot wing from Josten was a nightmare for me (in fact I found a WASP wing before I found a Josten pilot wing that I was willing to spend money on!).

 

But I don't think that many people outside of some of the collecting mavens really make that distinction between clutchback and pin back Josten wings.

[donaldnol]

i need to know is this a true JOSTEN'S STERLING WING

[pfrost]

Looks good to me

[donaldnol]

11 minutes ago, pfrost said:

Looks good to me

hard to see the lettering,  good thanks

[bschwartz]

That's a very nice wing.  Surprisingly, they seem much less common than the Senior Pilot and Command Pilot wings.

[pfrost]

I have always felt that the VAST majority of the relatively common senior and command clutch back Josten wings are actually post KW, and much more modern than is thought.  There are several threads on that idea in the forum.

But here is what I think.  The Josten WWII vintage wings (usually with pin backs) are relatively rare. This includes the Josten pilot, senior pilot and command pilot, the observer and some of the even more rare balloon wings.  Although not a STRICT rule, in general those WWII made rating were in pin back. The main exception to that is the WASP wing, which was only made in clutch back.

 

It took me ages to find a Josten pilot wing, then another age to find the pin back senior and command pilot wings.  I am still looking for the observer wing.

 

But I think you have to be careful into which time frame you put the clutchback senior and command pilot wings.  My feeling is that they are NOT WWII vintage.

 

Here is one thread but there are many others:

 

[rathbonemuseum.com]

Yes, authentic Josten observer and relatively hard to find.

[rustywings]

Donaldnol, thank you for sharing your terrific Josten Observer example! 

 

Patrick, I agree with your first statement that Josten likely continued to produce Senior Pilot and Command Pilot badges well through the USAAF/USAF transition period and into the Korean War.  But your second statement that neither of those two Pilot ratings were produced during WWII, I don't believe is accurate.  Besides Senior Pilot and Command Pilot, Josten also produced Balloon Pilot, Senior Balloon Pilot and Balloon Observer badges in the identical manner, with clutch-backs and their hallmark placement during WWII. Here's a Josten WASP, Senior Balloon Pilot, Senior Pilot and Command Pilot, all with what I believe are common WWII characteristics, to help further the discussion. 

[Kropotkin]

The difference in the clutch pins, as shown in the above picture, might be a pointer to likely dates of manufacture. The command pilot wing has the nail head pins suggesting a later manufacture compared to the three others that have soldered ‘straight’ pins, which are generally accepted as being WW2, late-40s era.

[pfrost]

Russ, just to quibble, I don't believe I said that the S/P or C/P weren't made in WWII. I do think that the VAST majority of the ones you see are in fact post KW time period.  Nearly none of the pilots who got their wings when WWII started would have been able to reach the qualifications for senior, much less command pilot status before the war.  I suspect that Josten made some war time SP and CP wings, but I also suspect that those particular versions are as rare or more rare than the other WWII-vintage wings like the observer/pilot.

The old NOS cache of Josten SP and CP wings that used to be sold on eBay probably represent more modern versions and not WWII vintage wings. Those appear to be all in clutch back.

The Josten pilot and observer wings (as well as some of the other ratings) do show up in both clutch and pin back versions and I have no issues with them being WWII.  My statements really only pertain to the rather common SP and CP wings.

 

In contrast to the huge number of SP and CP clutchback wings, you will rarely find (at least in my collection) a SP wing, in pin back, with the hallmark in the center of the shield.  They are more akin to the WWII version of the pilot wing, and it is my suspicion that those are WWII vintage wings.  NOT the ones with the clutchbacks... although I see no reason why some of them can't be.  No way of telling really.

 

P