US VIETNAM DOGTAG QUESTION

[dcollect]

Question 1 :

 

If someone goes into the army he gets a dotag with a service number and other information , can this number on his dogtags change during his service ? and if so when did it change .

 

Question 2 :

 

If a special force soldier went into cambodja on a mission , did he take his dogtag with him or not , or did he took a dogtag with him with a fake service number ?

 

thanks , bjorn .

[elbertson]

Question 1 :

 

If someone goes into the army he gets a dotag with a service number and other information , can this number on his dogtags change during his service ? and if so when did it change .

 

Question 2 :

 

If a special force soldier went into cambodja on a mission , did he take his dogtag with him or not , or did he took a dogtag with him with a fake service number ?

 

thanks , bjorn .

 

I withdrew my reply after further research...

[dcollect]

not many comments ,

 

this is the reason why i am asking this question :

 

I have been collecting medals and other war stuff for over 20 years and many times i visit my father ( retiered and lives in vietnam now ) .

On these trips i look for military items and sometimes i find something i like and buy the item .

During one of my trips i came at a local souvenir shop with old things and after asking she pulled a bag with damaged stuff ( found with a metal detector ) and together with some dogtags .

i bought them and finaly home i id some research .

 

one of the tags reads :

 

KROSKE

HAROLD W JR

05347665

O

NO PREF

 

if i look t the name it seems somebody with this name is KIA/MIA but the service number is not correct .

 

personally i think thee are 2 soldiers with the same name but i want to be shure .

 

the MIA/KIA soldier was a MAGSOG soldier so maybe he used a fake service number or maybe it is a old number and changed during his service .

 

can anyone help me with NARA to make a list of every soldier with this name that have been in vietnam .

[StevenL]

If he was enlisted then promoted to an officer his ASN would change.

[Steve B.]

At some point in the late 60s or early 70s (I think) the Army stopped using serial numbers and started using Social Security Account Numbers. Is the other number you have a Social Security number?

 

Also, I am told that fake dogtags are not uncommon in Vietnam along with fake named/unit marked Zippo lighters. Both are made to sell to tourists.

[elbertson]

At some point in the late 60s or early 70s (I think) the Army stopped using serial numbers and started using Social Security Account Numbers. Is the other number you have a Social Security number?

 

Also, I am told that fake dogtags are not uncommon in Vietnam along with fake named/unit marked Zippo lighters. Both are made to sell to tourists.

 

I believe the change to SSN was 1974.

 

Considering the number of men in the military at that time, it wouldn't surprise me to see cases of soldiers having the same name. My question, though, is why the owner of the tags you aquired left his tags in Vietnam. That is not a normal practice.

[Bob Hudson]

What you have are the dogtags from an Army Major who was declared KIA in 1979. The current KIA/MIA records show his Social Security number which is why you thought there were two people. Your tags have his old service number.

 

"Vietnam War: U.S. Military Casualties, 1956-1998

about Jr Harold William Kroske

Name: Harold William Kroske Jr

Birth Date: 30 Jul 1947

Death Date: 8 Jan 1979

Gender: Male

Age: 31

Race: Caucasian (White)

Home City: Trenton

Home State: New Jersey

Religion: Roman Catholic

Marital Status: Single (Spouse Not Listed)

SSN/Service #: 136381565

Citizen Status: U.S.

 

Death Date: 8 Jan 1979

Processed Date: Feb 1979

Casualty Country: Cambodia

Casualty Type: Hostile - Died While Missing

Casualty Reason: Unknown or Not Reported

Casualty Air: Ground Casualty

Body Status: Body Not Recovered

Service Branch: Department of the Army

Component: Reserve (USAR, USNR, USAFR, USMCR, USCGR)

Military Grade: Major

Pay Grade: Major (U.S. Army, U.S. Air Force, U.S. Marine Corps) or Lieutenant Commander (U.S. Navy, U.S. Coast Guard)

Data Source: Combat Area Casualties Current File"

 

 

 

U.S. Army Personnel and Dependent Casualties, 1961-1981

about Harold William Jr Kroske

Name: Harold William Jr Kroske

Birth Date: 30 Jul 1947

Gender: Male

Race: Caucasian (White)

Home State: North Carolina

Home City: Trenton

Religion: No Religious Preference

Casualty Country: Cambodia

Casualty Country (previous master): Cambodia

Casualty Category: Battle Dead

Casualty Group (previous master): Battle Missing

Casualty Status: Hostile Dead: Died While Missing In Action (current), Missing In Action: Bonified (previous)

Casualty Date: 8 Jan 1979

Cause Of Death: Not Booby Trap Connected: None Of The Above; Other Causes (includes Animal Attack, Lightning, Electrocution, Malnutrition, Thirst, Exposure (heat Or Cold), Collapsing Structure/falling Debris, Fall (parachute Or Otherwise), Assault By Human Without Weapon, Non-drug Poisoning (including Snake Bite).

Report Date: 11 Jan 1979

Officer Branch: Infantry

 

 

Social Security Death Index

about Harold W. Kroske

Name: Harold W. Kroske

SSN: 136-38-1565

Born: 30 Jul 1947

Died: 8 Jan 1979

State (Year) SSN issued: New Jersey (1963)

[Bob Hudson]

There is an article about this soldier at http://powmianj.org/HAROLD%20W%20KROSKE.htm -

 

An excerpt:

 

1st Lt. Harold Kroske was a reconnaissance patrol leader assigned to Command and Control South, MACV-SOG (Military Assistance Command, Vietnam Studies and Observation Group) was a joint service high command unconventional warfare task force engaged in highly classified operations throughout Southeast Asia. The 5th Special Forces channeled personnel into MACV-SOG (although it was not a Special Forces group) through Special Operations Augmentation (SOA), which provided their “cover” while under secret orders to MACV-SOG. The teams performed deep penetration missions of strategic reconnaissance and interdiction which were called, depending on the time frame, “Shining Brass” or “Prairie Fire” missions.

 

They have a photo too:

 

[capa]

wow, reading that story and seeing his photo really brought home the point that dogtags are so much more than metal discs...

[US82Bravo]

I believe the change to SSN was 1974.

 

Here's a link for the changeover dates from service number to ssn:

 

http://www.archives.gov/st-louis/military-...ty-numbers.html

 

 

Larry

[dcollect]

At some point in the late 60s or early 70s (I think) the Army stopped using serial numbers and started using Social Security Account Numbers. Is the other number you have a Social Security number?

 

Also, I am told that fake dogtags are not uncommon in Vietnam along with fake named/unit marked Zippo lighters. Both are made to sell to tourists.

 

Yes i know there are many fakes on the market in vietnam ( specially in saigon in the streets around "dan sinh" market and other places , 1 procent of the zippo's i come in contact with are original and 99 procent are fake , also many fake dogtags are sold there and misnumbred etc ...

 

I do not give my sources free but every collector can find tons of good stuff off road in vietnam but the people have to trust you and you have to be patient , just tell you like these old things and they will come up with stuff from cloths to medals zippo personal gear etc...

Never go to the big city's but to the very small ones , not to the big shops but the shops at the back of the houses where not so many tourists come .

 

thanks , bjorn .

[05B4S]

11 February 1969

 

Harold William Kroske, Jr., First Lieutenant (1LT, O-2)

Home of Record: Trenton, New jersey

 

US Army Special Forces

Command and Control South (CCS Ban Me Thuot)

Operation 35 (Ground Studies Group)

 

LT Kroske was the team leader on a reconnaissance mission in Cambodia. He was accompanied by two other Americans; Staff-Sergeants (SSGs) Bowen and Pope. After insertion the team moved from the landing zone towards their assigned target and heard enemy forces in their area. As they watched an enemy soldier walk past their position LT Kroske decided to take the man prisoner. He stepped onto the trail behind the enemy soldier; the startled soldier turned his, saw LT Kroske, and began to run. As LT Kroske chased him, he yelled to the soldier to surrender ("Chieu Hoi"). The NVA soldier stopped abruptly, spun around, and fired point-blank at LT Kroske, hitting him sever times in the upper body. Other enemy elements quickly converged on the area and the two Americans (SSGs Bowen and Pope were unable to recover LT Kroske due to the intensity of the enemy's fire. They were forced to withdraw from the area and evade an extraction site. LT Kroske was listed by the Department of Defense as missing in action (MIA), presumptive finding of death.

 

Recollection of Bob Head, SFC, Recon Team Leader, CCS 1969

 

Source: SOG Volume III, Harve Saal

 

 

IMO, the dog tags you have are fakes since RTs on cross-border missions shouldn't have been wearing/carrying anything hat could identify them as a members of the US military

[dcollect]

IMO, the dog tags you have are fakes since RTs on cross-border missions shouldn't have been wearing/carrying anything hat could identify them as a members of the US military

 

maybe they have no dogtags during the mission , i can believe it but i think they left the dogtags at the basecamps etc...

every soldier has dogtags in my opinion , why does a RT member did not have a dotag ?

the dogtags i ought where not in the bag with groundfinds as i mentioned in my previous post they are way to clean for a groundfind .

i think he left his dogtag at the base during his patrolling .

fake dogtags are made in vietnam with non existing names and numbers as i know .

[carbinekid]

I bet LT Kroske's family would be interested in your purchase. Just saying...

[05B4S]

I found this on another site...It ads a second version to my above post.

 

11 Feb 69- Harold "Harry" William Kroske Jr 1LT 02 of Trenton, NJ, USASF, CCS, RT Hammer, Ban Me Thout, Ops 35 MIA-Presumptive finding of death. (Version 1: As the platoon leader, of a Recon element with two other Americans in Cambodia they moved away from the LZ when they heard an enemy force in their area. A lone enemy soldier walked pass their position and Lt Kroske decided to take the soldier prisoner. He stepped out onto the trail behind the enemy soldier; the enemy soldier turned and saw Lt Krosek and took off running. Lt Kroske started to chase him yelling "Chieu Hoi." The enemy soldier stopped, turned and fired point blank at Lt Kroske hitting him several times in the chest. Immediately other enemy forces converged upon the area and engaged the remaining recon element, forcing the other two Americans to withdraw unable to recover Lt Kroske.

 

Version 2: Lt Kroske with Sp/4 Bryan Stockdale and four Nungs were inserted onto an open grassland, hustled for cover of a thick patch of jungle a quarter mile away; once there, Lt Kroske and the Nung point man crept forward to examine a major trail they?d spotted from the air as they landed, leaving Stockdale to make radio contact. Suddenly, there was a quick burst of automatic fire, then another, then a hail of fire, all 50 yards from Stockdale. The Nung point had returned reporting Kroske was dead. Stockdale investigated, finding Kroske, getting close enough to almost touch him, but due to the heavy enemy fire aimed at him, he could only shout at him to no avail. Stockdale returned to where he had left the Nungs, but they were no longer there and Stockdale was stocked the remainder of that day and night before being extracted to learn, Kroske and the Nung had walked upon three NVA, one of whom Kroske wanted to take prisoner. Kroske shot two of the NVA and waved the third over, but the last NVA jumped into the gras, fired a wildy and hit Kroske three times in the stomach and chest). NOTE: Version 2 fits the official version. --On your website you have two versions for Harold "Bill" Kroske. John Morley and I were the Brightlite team for that mission. The second version is the most accurate. Jim Day

 

Source:

 

http://www.macvsog.cc/1969.htm

[dcollect]

I bet LT Kroske's family would be interested in your purchase. Just saying...

 

i know , i tried to find them but as a non US guy no official service can provide me information

 

dogtag is for sale now .

[05B4S]

i know , i tried to find them but as a non US guy no official service can provide me information

 

dogtag is for sale now .

 

 

 

Perhaps you might consider donating them to the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare/Special Forces Branch Museum at Ft Bragg.

 

http://www.jfkwebstore.com/about.php