Gen. MacArthur's CIB

[MMA10mm]

Thanks for posting Marshall's complete catalog of decorations, STB. This is the first mention in this thread of Marshall's Mexican Border Service Medal.

 

Now is the time for another eye test (are you up for this, MMA10mm?) Was Marshall wearing his Mexican Border Service Medal ribbon in the ca.1919 picture (#4 position, 2nd row) and again in STB's ca.1923-24 picture (#1 position, 3rd row)? If so, he wouldn't be the first (or last) soldier to add a new ribbon at the end of his rack until it was time to do a complete overhaul. And, if he did wear the Mexican Border Service Medal ribbon while he was serving as Gen. Pershing's Aide-de-Camp, when and why did he stop wearing it, as this ribbon does not appear to be present in any later pictures of Marshall posted here so far?

 

O.K. Wailuna, but you may get my driver's license revoked and make me declared legally blind!

 

Here's my OPINION. (I've frequently been known to be wrong - just ask my wife.) He never wore the Mexican Border Service ribbon on his rack. Due to the dates of service, it would rank in precedence before ALL of his other service medals except the Philippine Campaign, and I haven't seen it worn in the right place, if it's there at all. (Granted, I freely admit that ribbons often didn't get put in the right place, and who is going to challenge the Chief of Staff during WWII?) So, what is that little dark-grey-almost-black, then nearly-white, then again with the super-dark-grey ribbon there in his bottom row? I think it's one of the foreign awards. Note that it changes position depending on whether in the two-row ribbon rack in the first picture, or beginning of the bottom row in the three-row ribbon rack. Yet, it is always worn with the foreign awards, and one would think that Gen'l Marshal would move it to it's correct location at some point, if it's really the MBS ribbon. Also, the US authorizes recipients to wear foreign awards in any order, so if it's a foreign award as I think, he could choose to switch it up when he got a new ribbon rack made while keeping it in the foreign awards area of his rack... Lastly, somewhere I've got a chart that shows how to interpret colors on old black-and-white photos. Certain things make since, but others don't - for example, yellow often appears very, very dark - almost black. Still, with the natural colors of the MBS, I would expect the two outer color bands on that ribbon to be lighter, as the green on that ribbon is more of a light green. Also, the yellow center stripe, I would think, taking into consideration that characteristic that yellow often shows artificially and counter-intuitively darker, that if that ribbon was the MBS, the center stripe should actually be darker than the outer stripes...

 

Another interesting thing I've noticed as I've gone back over these photos: If you look at the photo I linked in a prior post when Marshal was General of the Army, and wearing his mini-ribbons, the third ribbon (middle) of the top row appears solid black. I have two explanations. First, it's the Philippine Camp. ribbon and the red and navy blue have washed out to nearly solid black-looking in this photo (most-likely, I think, because in black-and-white photos dark red and navy blue often merge into one solid-looking color - and look how the color blends in with the blue tips of the WWI victory right next to it), or second - could this be the solid black/navy blue ribbon of the Congressional Gold Medal he received? (I thought it was a table-top medal only, but could he have been wearing a solid navy-blue or black ribbon for it in this location?)

[MMA10mm]

MMA10mm, I think you answered your own question about the EAME & the AP Campaign medal. They were awarded for any service within the theater limits, even if it were temporary, which in Marshall's case it would be.

I also do agree that some earlier ribbon bar variants looked sort of glossy or plastic.

 

Example is Smedley Butler's RB: (looks like they were fixed in metal with a plastic cover. idk if maybe this was the thing to do in the 1930s Marine corps or Army.)

 

STB -

 

THANK YOU for that photo!

 

Smedley Butler is my favorite historical general. Interesting history, interesting guy, interesting career, showed his truth (warts and all), and always stuck to his convictions regardless of the consequences. Also doesn't hurt he's the highest-decorated person in the history of the US, in my opinion. (Since the Brevet Medal was a Marine Corps Officer's "consolation prize" for not being able to get a MoH, I always felt it should rank equally to the MoH, making Smedley the only person to be awarded the equivalent of three MoHs.)

 

Love the Arabic numeral 4 on the MC Expeditionary, the Maltese Cross on the WWI victory, and the shot of early 20th Century MoH ribbons and of course, a genuine original Brevet Medal ribbon and China Relief Expedition ribbon... (WOW!!) Also interesting that the early 20th century Order of the Black Star has a different style rosette than the modern one...

 

I've never seen this ribbon rack before at all. (Seen full-size medals on a white dress uniform once, but not the undress ribbons...) Note that the Mexican Service ribbon is pretty far out of place!!

 

Thanks again for sharing! Do you know where this uniform is displayed, if it is at all?

[SpookyTeddyBear]

STB -

 

THANK YOU for that photo!

 

Smedley Butler is my favorite historical general. Interesting history, interesting guy, interesting career, showed his truth (warts and all), and always stuck to his convictions regardless of the consequences. Also doesn't hurt he's the highest-decorated person in the history of the US, in my opinion. (Since the Brevet Medal was a Marine Corps Officer's "consolation prize" for not being able to get a MoH, I always felt it should rank equally to the MoH, making Smedley the only person to be awarded the equivalent of three MoHs.)

 

Love the Arabic numeral 4 on the MC Expeditionary, the Maltese Cross on the WWI victory, and the shot of early 20th Century MoH ribbons and of course, a genuine original Brevet Medal ribbon and China Relief Expedition ribbon... (WOW!!) Also interesting that the early 20th century Order of the Black Star has a different style rosette than the modern one...

 

I've never seen this ribbon rack before at all. (Seen full-size medals on a white dress uniform once, but not the undress ribbons...) Note that the Mexican Service ribbon is pretty far out of place!!

 

Thanks again for sharing! Do you know where this uniform is displayed, if it is at all?

 

Hey no problem! he is one of my favorite's as well! here is a Link to the page.

 

Though officially the BM is on par with the DSC, I've always thought that it should be held in high honor like the MH.

 

Also, for your enjoyment, is a great photo of Smedley during his court martial trial: (I've never seen a uniform like that before!)

[Jack's Son]

How many more Gerenals have CIB for us to discuss?

[MMA10mm]

How many more Gerenals have CIB for us to discuss?

:pinch: Guilty, as charged! Sorry everyone, and especially to the OP. I seriously hijacked this thread!

 

 

STB - Awesome picture of his Philadelphia Police Chief-cum-Marine Corps Major General uniform!

 

Tell me, do you have a pic of him with his shirt off, showing off his full-torso EGA tattoo?!? :think:

[SpookyTeddyBear]

How many more General have the CIB for us to discuss?

 

Well we have already discussed MacArthur, Bradley, Stilwell.

 

 

Who I have found so far:

James Gavin (probably when Colonel), Van Fleet, Frank Merrill (probably when Colonel), Butler Miltonberger, Paul Baade

[SpookyTeddyBear]

:pinch: Guilty, as charged! Sorry everyone, and especially to the OP. I seriously hijacked this thread!

STB - Awesome picture of his Philadelphia Police Chief-cum-Marine Corps Major General uniform!

 

Tell me, do you have a pic of him with his shirt off, showing off his full-torso EGA tattoo?!? :think:

 

That I do not have! That would be excellent to see, though. I will be on the look out for one, if there is, and I'll forward it to you!

[seanmc1114]

Well we have already discussed MacArthur, Bradley, Stilwell.

Who I have found so far:

James Gavin (probably when Colonel), Van Fleet, Frank Merrill (probably when Colonel), Butler Miltonberger, Paul Baade

James Gavin would have earned the CIB as a colonel commanding the 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment during the invasion of Sicily in July 1943.

 

James A. Van Fleet was a colonel in command of the 8th Infantry Regiment at Utah Beach on D-Day. Definitely eligible for the CIB.

 

Frank Merrill was a colonel on Gen. MacArthur's staff in the Philippines but serving on a mission in Burma when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. He was promoted to BG sometime in 1942. His CIB could have been retroactive.

 

Butler Miltonberger commanded the 134th Infantry Regiment in combat as a colonel from 1944 until early 1945.

 

MG Paul W. Baade commanded the 35th Infantry Division from January 1943, long before it deployed overseas. If he earned the CIB as a colonel, it would have to have been before that.

[Bluehawk]

How precious that CIB truly is, to anyone.

[Wailuna]

...Frank Merrill was a colonel on Gen. MacArthur's staff in the Philippines but serving on a mission in Burma when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. He was promoted to BG sometime in 1942. His CIB could have been retroactive...

Ah, but General Merrill was not an "infantryman" as the purists would have it. He was commissioned from West Point as a 2nd Lieutenant of Cavalry in June 1929 and he transferred to the Ordnance Department in June 1932. He was a major when the War started and he was not appointed brigadier general (AUS) until November 8, 1943 (source: Official Army Register, January 1, 1944. Yes, Wikipedia FUBARs again). Did Colonel Merrill fight in Burma as an "infantryman" (he was also there as a major and lieutenant colonel)? Or is he another CIB pretender? Anyone interested in reading the Army directive that established the CIB in October 1943 can link here and decide for himself.

 

[seanmc1114]

Ah, but General Merrill was not an "infantryman" as the purists would have it. He was commissioned from West Point as a 2nd Lieutenant of Cavalry in June 1929 and he transferred to the Ordnance Department in June 1932. He was a major when the War started and he was not appointed brigadier general (AUS) until November 8, 1943 (source: Official Army Register, January 1, 1944. Yes, Wikipedia FUBARs again). Did Colonel Merrill fight in Burma as an "infantryman" (he was also there as a major and lieutenant colonel)? Or is he another CIB pretender? Anyone interested in reading the Army directive that established the CIB in October 1943 can link here and decide for himself.

 

When did he serve in the European-African-Middle Eastern theater? In the picture he's wearing the ribbon for that campaign medal. According to his bio here Frank Merrill bio, he attended the Cairo Conference in 1943 on Gen. Stillwell's staff.

 

Would that alone qualify him for the medal? I believe the regulations state that a visitor or passenger not permanently assigned to the theater qualified after 30 days of consecutive time in theater or 60 non-consecutive days.

[Wailuna]

...When did he serve in the European-African-Middle Eastern theater? ... I believe the regulations state that a visitor or passenger not permanently assigned to the theater qualified after 30 days of consecutive time in theater or 60 non-consecutive days...

...How many more Gerenals have CIB for us to discuss?

Okay, I'll bite (even at the risk of ignoring "Jack's Son's" reminder to stay on topic): Which regulation(s) are you believing with respect to EAME campaign medal criteria?

[seanmc1114]

Okay, I'll bite (even at the risk of ignoring "Jack's Son's" reminder to stay on topic): Which regulation(s) are you believing with respect to EAME campaign medal criteria?

To get back to the topic at hand, you are right that Merrill's eligibility for the CIB is a little puzzling. I suppose someone could obtain a copy of his records from the National Archives to determine if there are any orders awarding him the CIB and, if so, by what headquarters and under what authority. On that note I was just pointing out that I found it strange he was also wearing the EAME ribbon in the picture you posted as I was not aware that he served anywhere in that theater.

 

But in answer to your specific question, I was not trying to nitpick, just thinking out loud as to what I understand the criteria for the WWII campaign medals to be.

 

http://veteranmedals.army.mil/awardg&d...33;OpenDocument

 

"a. The European-African-Middle Eastern (EAME) Campaign Medal was awarded to personnel for service within the European-African-Middle Eastern Theater between 7 December 1941 and 8 November 1945 under any of the following conditions:

 

(1) On permanent assignment.

 

(2) In a passenger status or on temporary duty for 30 consecutive days or 60 days not consecutive.

(3) In active combat against the enemy and was awarded a combat decoration or furnished a certificate by the commanding general of a corps, higher unit, or independent force that he actually participated in combat."

 

This is how someone like George Marshall qualified for the European-African-Middle Eastern and Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medals. He was never permanently assigned in either theater but most likely made enough trips to accumulate the 60 nonconsecutive days in each.

 

Actually, at the risk of being overcritical, I'm not sure how Merrill would have qualified for the American Campaign Medal either. That one required service outside the limits of the continental U.S. under the same criteria as above or one year aggregate service in the U.S.

[rr01]

I don't get it. The regulations are quite specific but there are also allowances within those regulations. There were two major operational regs while I was on active duty that had the usual warnings about compliance but then there was an additional paragraph that said essentially the content of these regs was not intended to take the place of common sense.

Bear with me on this but about fifteen years ago I met a former 11th Airborne officer who had served in the Phillipines. He mentioned he had receieved a request from one of his former NCOs to begin attending the reunions. He gave the usual explanations about his guilt over the casualties to which I countered that as a retired NCO I think he shouild still attend. Why? Because despite how he personally felt about his performance if his old NCOs felt diferently about it to encourage him to attend he should still listen to his NCOs.

My point is that for most of these individuals is that some of these officers may have received these awards at the behest of the junior officers & NCOs they commanded. In the end, what does it really matter? It almost sounds as though this is a backhanded "Stolen Valor" discussion about things that happened long before most of us were born.

So what if MacArthur got a CIB. He's dead. Stillwell? The same. Maybe it's time to resurrect this one while we're at it: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...=150164&hl=

[Bluehawk]

...Maybe it's time to resurrect this one while we're at it: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...=150164&hl=

I suppose the "mystique" of a pilot's wing and a CIB might, by some folks, be deemed equivalent.

 

Not sure the 11B would feel that a wing was as coveted as his CIB, however. Maybe, as was said, it doesn't matter. But it seems to...

[rr01]

I suppose the "mystique" of a pilot's wing and a CIB might, by some folks, be deemed equivalent.

 

Not sure the 11B would feel that a wing was as coveted as his CIB, however. Maybe, as was said, it doesn't matter. But it seems to...

With that I'll agree but I think those wearing the CIBs should be making the point.

[SpookyTeddyBear]

here is a bit from the Official USMA register for Cadets 1950:

 

No note of service in either EAME or American Theaters.

 

So as seanmc1114 stated on the medal requirements, I believe he garnered at least 30 days temporary service.

same with the American Campaign medal, since it went from December 7, 1941 and March 2, 1946 for cumulative of one years service or 30 days outside the continental US, but within the ATO.

[Bluehawk]

With that I'll agree but I think those wearing the CIBs should be making the point.

Fair enough... and the purpose of this thread.

[rr01]

Fair enough... and the purpose of this thread.

I thought so but it's a little misleading with all this dissecting of regulations, badges and ribbon bars to answer that one single question about a MacArthurs CIB.

[Bluehawk]

I thought so but it's a little misleading with all this dissecting of regulations, badges and ribbon bars to answer that one single question about a MacArthurs CIB.

:think:

Turns out to be more complicated than we once imagined, eh?

 

Fascinating, all in all. Very educational... for me, the lowest of the low wing wiping ramp dog, about as far from a CIB as it is possible to get without not enlisting.

[rr01]

:think:

Turns out to be more complicated than we once imagined, eh?

Not really. The awards are on the chests of men long dead with only a paper trail, or not as testament. The regulations might be explicit in their writing but not necessarily explicit in application but how much does that really matter?

Mike Boorda was rightly accused of wearing two decorations he was not entitled to but up to that moment the man was an inspiring leader. Even in death he is still a more admirable admiral than those before or since who were supposedly much more capable.

My own point here is that it matters not what decorations and badges are worn as much as the capabilities of the person wearing them.

[SpookyTeddyBear]

General Officers awarded CIB:

Douglas MacArthur: January 20, 1961 (Honorary)

Joseph Stilwell: October 11, 1946 (Honorary, presented by Robert Patterson)

Omar Bradley:

William F. Dean: October 31, 1955 (Honorary)

Robert Beightler: October 27, 1943

Matthew Ridgway: November 7, 1991 (Honorary, presented by General Powell)

Robert Eichelberger:

 

Officers who went on to be Generals:

James Gavin:

James van Fleet:

Frank Merrill:

Butler Miltonburger:

Paul Baade:

[Bluehawk]

I think of them, the infantry soldiers, every day.

 

I'm grateful they have special recognition with their beautiful badge.

[seanmc1114]

General Officers awarded CIB:

Douglas MacArthur: January 20, 1961 (Honorary)

Joseph Stilwell: October 11, 1946 (Honorary, presented by Robert Patterson)

Omar Bradley:

William F. Dean: October 31, 1955 (Honorary)

Robert Beightler: October 27, 1943

Matthew Ridgway: November 7, 1991 (Honorary, presented by General Powell)

Robert Eichelberger:

 

Officers who went on to be Generals:

James Gavin:

James van Fleet:

Frank Merrill:

Butler Miltonburger:

Paul Baade:

I wonder if there is any photographic evidence that any of those who received the CIB as an honorary award ever actually wore the badge. To me that would really be the key. I can understand someone accepting an honorary badge much like an honorary degree from a college. But I don't think it would then be appropriate to wear the badge as if it was earned the normal way any more than you would go to work in the field you received your honorary degree as if you had done the actual coursework.

[SpookyTeddyBear]

I wonder if there is any photographic evidence that any of those who received the CIB as an honorary award ever actually wore the badge. To me that would really be the key. I can understand someone accepting an honorary badge much like an honorary degree from a college. But I don't think it would then be appropriate to wear the badge as if it was earned the normal way any more than you would go to work in the field you received your honorary degree as if you had done the actual coursework.

 

Well for Stilwell, it was presented to him well on his death bed. He was awarded it the day before he died.

MacArthur is another story as he was awarded it in his later years when he gave up wearing a uniform.

 

here is a ca 1980s photo of Bradley wearing his "honorary" CIB: