17th Airborne Equipment

[Rambo]

I'm setting out on doing a 17th Airborne, 513th PIR, Operation Varsity impression. Does anyone have specific information on what gear was issued and used to these troopers? Was any rigger made items used? I've found a few photos but those can only tell me so much.

Thanks, Kyle

[BigJohn#3RD]

Hi Rambo,

I am going out on a limb and say that I am pretty sure that Rigger Made items where used by members of the 17th Airborne. As these items where made in order to fill gaps in equipment ideqntified during the battles in N. Africa and Italy by members of the 82nd ABN and 509 PIB. Now I can very well be wrong and some stitch-nazi will jump all over me and say it was not so. Many combat soldiers adjusted their equipment to meet their needs and many young troops looked to the Vets of the unit to set their gear up. Many Enlisted, NCO and Officer, (disbaned units i.e. 509, 1SSF, OSS Teams where sent ot round out the 17th before its combat jump. Just my SWAG.

Regards,

John

[J_Andrews]

As I have posted before, a vet of the 17th Parachute Maintenance Co told me that rigger pouches were still around, even freshly-made ones, at the time of VARSITY. However, by that time they were not very "popular" and the most popular accoutrement was the G.P. Ammo Bag, and a VARSITY impression needs one of those.

[124cav]

 

 

 

[124cav]

 

 

 

 

[124cav]

 

 

 

[124cav]

 

 

 

 

[124cav]

 

 

 

 

ive looked at a bunch of varisty pics and cant ever spot rigger stuff

 

hope these pics give you an informed impression

[doyler]

Take a look at the trooper waiting to climb the ladder.He carries a modified rifle jump bag.Also the frontal view of the trooper in gear,post #5(from life magazine)He also has a modified rifle bag having the additional material for the rifle (barrel)to be carried with out being broken down.He also is wearing modified trousers showing rigger added pockets and the knee reinforcements

[124cav]

sorry,should have been more specific,no rigger pouches or bags made obvious in any photo thats come to light

[TomV]

Thanks for sharing these pictures. There are several which I had never seen before.

 

Regards, Tom

[124cav]

happy to help

[shocktrooper15]

I like (bottom picture in post #6) how the medic on the right has an M42 Jump Jacket. Great photo of late war use.

 

Does anyone know why none of them are wearing 17th airborne SSI?

 

Outstanding Photos! Thanks for sharing! :w00t:

 

 

shocktrooper

[J_Andrews]

From several 17th vets: By Division SOP, no SSIs or rank (enlisted chevrons or officer shoulder strap type) were to be worn visible of outer field clothing. They were worn on shirts, under field jackets, etc. The 17th also GENERALLY did NOT use the white bars on the backs of helmets for NCOs and officers. This was from the time the Div arrived in the ETO.

 

Every so often you may encounter a picture with an SSI or chevrons, but not generally. The vets said that chain of command enforced the no patches rule -- platoon sgts and 1st Sgts LOVED setting violators straight.

[shocktrooper15]

From several 17th vets: By Division SOP, no SSIs or rank (enlisted chevrons or officer shoulder strap type) were to be worn visible of outer field clothing. They were worn on shirts, under field jackets, etc. The 17th also GENERALLY did NOT use the white bars on the backs of helmets for NCOs and officers. This was from the time the Div arrived in the ETO.

 

Every so often you may encounter a picture with an SSI or chevrons, but not generally. The vets said that chain of command enforced the no patches rule -- platoon sgts and 1st Sgts LOVED setting violators straight.

 

Thanks for the info!

[mpguy80/08]

I've seen one picture of a trooper during the Varsity drop wearing the Rigger modified Carbine scabbard for the M1A1... Not sure hif he was 17th though... It had two carbine pouches sewn on it... one on the flap and one on the body of the scabbard just below the flap. I'll be darned if I can find the picture though...

 

Wayne

[Rambo]

124cav, awesome pictures! Many of those I've never seen either. If you have anymore, could you send them to my email? ([email protected])

I've read The Sky Men by Kirk B. Ross, which is an excellent book of F Co. of the 513 PIR. Looks like to me of the only real common rigger items are the 2nd Pattern Griswold Bags, modified M43 trousers, rigger demo pouches, and 2 pictures of troopers with M1 carbine pouches on the shoulder of the M43 jacket. Using a second canteen pouch for ammo and what not seems to be some what common also.

[Rambo]

(Sorry for the double post, I don't know how to edit posts.)

Does anyone have infomation on what equipment a trooper carrying a Grease Gun or Thompson would carry? Neither the pictures nor did the book show me anything. (IE: .45 side arm? SMG ammo bag? rigger pouches? GP bag? etc...)

[glenm]

Looks like to me of the only real common rigger items are... rigger demo pouches...

 

Rigger demo pouches? The Demo Equipment Bags used by the 17th Airborne in these photos are issue ones, not rigger-made.

 

Cheers,

Glen.

[J_Andrews]

A second canteen cover was often used to carry GRENADES. IIRC up to four frags can be squuezed with one snap snapped.

 

Again, GP ammo bags were very common in the 17th and in VARSITY generally. I have seen a pic of one trooper using TWO GP ammo bags, but, given weight of two bagsful of ammo, I suppose they were filled with something less weighty.

[Rambo]

Rigger demo pouches? The Demo Equipment Bags used by the 17th Airborne in these photos are issue ones, not rigger-made.

 

Cheers,

Glen.

The bag on the right is what I thought was the 'demo rigger pouches.'

Also here

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/315916-2/ww2_78

I guess I mistaken them for the rigger pouch version.

I call them 'rigger demo pouches' because it looks almost like these on wwiiimpressions.com:

[Johan Willaert]

Those ARE the standard late-war demo-bags...

[1944]

happy to help

 

 

Amazing pictures you have got there i like them a lot

and thanks for sharing them :thumbsup: .

[J_Andrews]

To review:

 

There are two different bags commonly called "demo bags".

 

The style shown in the LIFE magazine pic and the replica are Engineer stock items, nomenclature Demolition EQUIPMENT Canvas Carrying Bags.

 

They came into service about early 1944, in time for Normandy. There were "rigger-made" demo bags used by Airborne, in 1942-1943 in N Africa and Italy, but not commonly so in the ETO.

 

Their INTENDED use was not to carry explosives, such as blocks of TNT or plastic.

 

They were intended to carry all the specialized items a demo man would need to blow stuff up, such as: blasting machine, fuses, fuse lighters, friction tape, crimpers, detcord, galvanometer and electrical wire. Blasting caps COULD be carried, but for safety purposes troops often separately stowed them, in wooden case the size of a cigarette pack or inside a tobacco can, in a pocket.

 

EXPLOSIVES were INTENDED to be carried in the Demolition Haversack. This is flimsily made and is closed only by cloth tape ties -- no metal fasteners. Plastique often came packed in such bags, and TNT was taken from bulk packaging and stashed in spare haversacks.

 

"Satchel charge" identifies a USE of explosives, not a particular bag.

[Rambo]

From several 17th vets: By Division SOP, no SSIs or rank (enlisted chevrons or officer shoulder strap type) were to be worn visible of outer field clothing. They were worn on shirts, under field jackets, etc. The 17th also GENERALLY did NOT use the white bars on the backs of helmets for NCOs and officers. This was from the time the Div arrived in the ETO.

 

Every so often you may encounter a picture with an SSI or chevrons, but not generally. The vets said that chain of command enforced the no patches rule -- platoon sgts and 1st Sgts LOVED setting violators straight.

Do you know if that was required during Battle of the Bulge also or just during Varsity?