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ww2 ranger scrolls theater made ?


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Hello guys I would like some help with two Ranger scrolls I have a chance to buy.The scrolls I am told are theater made.One for the 2nd and one for the 3rd.

Can someone please tell me if they are WWII and are they theater made and what country are they made if you know.THANKS FOR ANY HELP DENNIS

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Pass on them! I do not like them at all. They look very much asian made. :(

 

-Ski

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Pte Harold Griffiths, 1805, 1/6th Manchester Regt, KIA June 4th, 1915 in Gallipoli
Cpl Isaac Judges, 40494, 6th East Yorkshire Regt, KIA October 3rd, 1917 in Ypres
May they rest in peace.....

MSgt - USAF Retired

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Dennis -

 

I have them for the 1st, 2nd, and 5th; I obtained them in the early 70s. I have always been unsure as to when they were made. As late as the 70s? I doubt it. 60s? doesn't look typical of the period. 50s or late 40s? I can't definitively answer. They were made post WW II, but I don't know for certain. Now your number "3" definitely looks Japanese, as do the rest of each of these discussed. The construction resembles Japanese-made scrolls for the Ranger Infantry Companies (Airborne) wihch served during the KW, fow which I have or have seen several.

 

And, if you can recall the Forum thread and Trading Post article on the Hashimoto insignia, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss these. Hashimoto made patches into 1954/1955, and there were some for ETO units, WW I units, etc. It had to be marketing - can't sell what you don't have. I have not seen any of this "series" for the 4th or 6th, but that doesn't mean they were made, too.

 

Here is an example of what I mean about dismissing this series. I have this Japanese-made one for the 3rd, in a typical Japanese scroll - and I believe it to be late 40s or early 50s. Only one I have seen. And it is not unused - it has been sewn to something.

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Dennis -

 

I have them for the 1st, 2nd, and 5th; I obtained them in the early 70s. I have always been unsure as to when they were made. As late as the 70s? I doubt it. 60s? doesn't look typical of the period. 50s or late 40s? I can't definitively answer. They were made post WW II, but I don't know for certain. Now your number "3" definitely looks Japanese, as do the rest of each of these discussed. The construction resembles Japanese-made scrolls for the Ranger Infantry Companies (Airborne) wihch served during the KW, fow which I have or have seen several.

 

And, if you can recall the Forum thread and Trading Post article on the Hashimoto insignia, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss these. Hashimoto made patches into 1954/1955, and there were some for ETO units, WW I units, etc. It had to be marketing - can't sell what you don't have. I have not seen any of this "series" for the 4th or 6th, but that doesn't mean they were made, too.

 

Here is an example of what I mean about dismissing this series. I have this Japanese-made one for the 3rd, in a typical Japanese scroll - and I believe it to be late 40s or early 50s. Only one I have seen. And it is not unused - it has been sewn to something.

 

I have to agree, the Germans did units that were never over here to be used as combat patches for the right sleeve. So the Japanese also did the same stuff. These are 100% not WW2 but I would place them in the 50's to early 60's Japanese made stuff. So are they theater made,,yep, just later.

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These scrolls were evidently up for sale on ePay as I was contacted last night by the seller, who was less than happy with my assessment of his patches. After discussing the subject with him for a period of time and looking at the detailed photos that he e-mailed to me, I would have to agree with Tredhed2 and x_redcatcher that both of these scrolls are indeed Japanese made and made as a "combat" patch for the two ranger battalions depicted.

 

My initial concern with these two scrolls was the fact that you have a 2nd and a 3rd Battalion scroll that are both made in the exact same manner. I can think of no earthly reason why these scrolls would have ever been theater made in the ETO by the same hand as the 3rd was in Italy when it ceased to exist (and survivors of the BN were sent mainly to the FSSF) and the 2nd which obviously entered the war on June 6, 1944 and fought through France, Belgium and Germany.

 

Tredhed2's mention of the Hashimoto patches is a good example of how certain patch designs can wind up far from the places where one would expect to find them. Bill Scott recently had a GORGEOUS Japanese made and hand embroidered 101st patch up for auction. Obviously the 101st was never in Japan, but there is no doubt that a veteran wanted an eagle patch for his uniform while serving in Japan, thus we had a $2,000 plus patch as a result.

 

Upon the further review and the discussions that I have had in regards to these scrolls, I am going to reverse my call on them and say that I agree with Tredhed2 and that I believe that they are Japanese made and would guess that they would date to the Korean war era, though it would be possible that they could have been made a little later than that. Thinking about these patches reminds me of the late Col. Jim Greene who had Vietnamese made Ranger diamonds made for a combat patch while he was in Vietnam. Obviously, the ranger diamond wouldn't have been a fake, but rather a theater made piece that would eventually make a patch collector scratch his head and say "huh?"

 

I would assume that the two Ranger scrolls that started this thread would be extremely rare and desireable.

 

My apologies to anyone who might have been negatively affected by what I posted yesterday.

Allan

Never under-estimate the power of prayer.

 

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Allan H. brought up a good point that I forgot about - the late Co. Greene (and another WW II Ranger vet) also had subdued 5th Ranger Bn scrolls made in VN for their wear (back cover, Jul-Sept 85 Trading Post). Theater-made - but diff theater, and perhaps 25 years later. One just never knows for certain what a particular GI did/does when it comes to insignia.

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In regard to WW II theatre made Ranger scrolls, the 1st Ranger Battalion was the first to have such made. Members of the original 1st Battalion had scrolls made in North Africa and they were bullion. Later on members of the 1st, 3rd and 4th Ranger Battalions had theatre made scrolls done in Italy.

 

 

I am not about to get involved with the specific question about these two scrolls perhaps being made for vets, i.e., perfectly legitimately. We have Japanese-made versions of a number of patches obtained from the vets who had them made in Japan. However, these two patches are NOT Japanese-made, in my most humble opinion. Now, they might have been made on Okinawa, home to some of the crappiest made patches of all time, but if Mr hashimoto had seen these two efforts, he would have tossed his cookies. I think they could also have been made in Taiwan. None of this affects anything except where I think they were made.

 

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  • 7 years later...

I know this is an old thread however I want to point out that I have an identical 4th Ranger ribbon as well and I know that 1st exist. So whoever made these made all examples from the ETO.

One point NOT raised at that time was the fact that these patches GLOW under black light but oddly the threads burn as NOT being synthetic.

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I have a 3rd

In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

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When I first saw these I thought they were German made. A collector of commonwealth insignia said these match some types of British shoulder patches. He had compared them and owned several himself. As to their originality, Ranger scrolls were not hard to come by in the 1970's so I don't see why they would have been made for the collector market. You could still get felt Patch King type ones in the late 60's for sure. I'm sure Hobby guild or others could set you up with a set as well.

 

I have seen 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th scrolls made like this. These are not made in a high volume way (in fact I think we've seen less than 10 of this type in total) If you look closely, they are all individually made with a hand guided machine. Take a look at the 2nd, you can see the white stencil marking (heck it could even be hand drawn) behind the "R". Even the base scroll (the red line part) is not standardized, suggesting they too are made with a hand guided machine. The 2nd and the 5th both passed through England, so seeing these makes sense. 1st and 3rd vets could have as well, whether by transfer or recovering from wounds in a UK hospital. Some Rangers could have been wounded during the Normandy campaign, been evacuated to England and picked these up while recovering.

 

I have not seen a 6th Bn (PTO). To me, that adds a little more to the English made theory. In the new book we listed them as TM/England. Finding one in a group to prove exactly where they're made might be a pretty tall order as complete Ranger groups are almost impossible to find.

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When I first saw these I thought they were German made. A collector of commonwealth insignia said these match some types of British shoulder patches. He had compared them and owned several himself. As to their originality, Ranger scrolls were not hard to come by in the 1970's so I don't see why they would have been made for the collector market. You could still get felt Patch King type ones in the late 60's for sure. I'm sure Hobby guild or others could set you up with a set as well.

 

I have seen 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th scrolls made like this. These are not made in a high volume way (in fact I think we've seen less than 10 of this type in total) If you look closely, they are all individually made with a hand guided machine. Take a look at the 2nd, you can see the white stencil marking (heck it could even be hand drawn) behind the "R". Even the base scroll (the red line part) is not standardized, suggesting they too are made with a hand guided machine. The 2nd and the 5th both passed through England, so seeing these makes sense. 1st and 3rd vets could have as well, whether by transfer or recovering from wounds in a UK hospital. Some Rangers could have been wounded during the Normandy campaign, been evacuated to England and picked these up while recovering.

 

I have not seen a 6th Bn (PTO). To me, that adds a little more to the English made theory. In the new book we listed them as TM/England. Finding one in a group to prove exactly where they're made might be a pretty tall order as complete Ranger groups are almost impossible to find.

 

I forgot I had these photographs of a 6th Ranger Battalion scroll that looks awfully close to the ones in question.

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Same

 

Base and back material are a common factor in all of these.

In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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  • 11 months later...

I realise this a slightly aged thread - but I wanted to add my 10 pen'th worth as we say in England and agree that the 2nd scroll is not wartime (if it is post-war then I apologise because its outside of my knowledge area).

 

I have been fortunate enough to meet a number of 2nd and 5th D-day Rangers over the last few years and I have visited many of them in their own homes. Most (if not all) had copies of their 2nd and 5th titles on their walls... and I have also been lucky enough to have been given spares they brought home from the war.

 

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that ALL of the patches which were original ALL have the same characteristics and the examples shown here are NOT British made, or variations etc. They do NOT conform to the originals I know of - so I judge them to be either post war used or copies.

 

The cheese-cloth style backing is wrong... the stitching on the "TH" and "TN" is completely different... so my guess would be that these have been made to fool collectors or for some other reason post war.

 

The originals look VERY different to these and all the reasons behind these "variations" give by dealers might sound plausable - but at the end of the day I feel that serious Ranger collectors would not buy them. As I recently said to a Dutch guy who wanted an original 2nd Rangers scroll for his collection.... "Why would you go out and buy a non-standard patch simply on the say-so of a vendor".... my advice was to stick to the ones which 1 million percent conform to every single known original patch as worn during WWII.

 

If you want a post war one - then I am sure these may be good examples of that... but not D-day and I want people to understand that enough good examples exist and enough good collectors on this forum know that to be the case.

 

I agree with the comment that original are not that difficult to find - but they are a little over priced right now ----- so my advice.... if it looks wrong or it looks different - then give it a wide berth.

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I agree with your self-assessment about post war insignia.

 

Just about every 6th Ranger Bn scroll/patch is post war - the only exceptions are the US made scrolls. Those of us who visited vets in the 60s 70s and 80s realize that many simply did not recall where/when they obtained their scrolls, especially the 1st, 3rd and 4th Ranger Bn vets. Unless a collector was there when it was made, especially the 1st, 3rd and 4th, collectors have to utilize their knowledge, experience, skills, knowledge of unit histories, resources. and their memories. Collectors have to be wary of stories from certain dealers, e.g., buy the patch, not the story, as well as concur with dealers they are familiar with. .

 

The 2nd and the 5th Ranger Bns did not wear scrolls until post war (most collectors are aware of the 5th's scrolls being made in Bavaria). The two battalions wore their diamond, or lozenge-shaped patches, or, like many GIs, nothing. Theater made 2nd Ranger Bn scrolls are very difficult to find.

 

Comparing US made Ranger scrolls to theater made scrolls is apples and oranges.

 

Lastly, the Kellers have an outstanding book about WW 2- KW Ranger scrolls. It's $40 (what a period original WW 2 Ranger Bn scroll goes for) 56 ppgs, and has some terrific photos of the scrolls being worn. Send PM if interested.

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Well, regarding the Keller book, of which I have a copy, I see 3 patches mentioned in this thread as fake that are listed in their books as real WWII made examples. Some of the people that helped with the book I believe are members here. So what to make of that?

 

For example, the photo by you Tred in post #5, I take it provided by you for the book, is described in the Keller book as being WWII, Italian made. Should I start using the book as toilet paper? :o

 

Best,

 

Bill K.

WTB USMC NAMED GROUPINGS, WWI, WWII (ESPECIALLY 4TH MARINE DIVISION ITEMS) AND UNIS MARKED ITEMS, NAMED INFANTRY DIVISION 4 POCKET CLASS A JACKETS, ESPECIALLY 34th ID AND NAMED GROUPINGS, FIRST SPECIAL SERVICE FORCE ITEMS



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Just to add --- I put "D-day" when I meant to say "end of WWII" ie. "Army of Occupation" era post-hostilities as we commonly know it. As opposed to definite post war ones made later ... a slip of the pen sorry. But the distinction is pretty obvious.

 

I was actually thinking of the Diamond lozenge as well when I was writing and the same qualifications go for that in my mind. My advice is to buy the obviously original pattern - of which ALL the ones I have known to be original conform.

 

Again - why buy a "non" standard one from anyone. As you say dont buy the story.

 

It would be interesting to see pictures from the book referred too above. I do not have a copy of it - so would it be helpful to show them if possible.

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