Collecting Article

[36-tex]

I just read this article. It was posted on the WAF website, but came from another site. I think it brings up some excellent points and some I live by.

 

 

CLICK HERE TO READ THE FULL ARTICLE: http://blog.militarytrader.com/jagfile/201...cting+Dead.aspx

 

 

Is Civil War collecting dead?

Posted by john

 

Greetings,

 

The other day, a prominent militaria dealer contacted me. In all seriousness, he said, “John, let me ask you a question. Is Civil War collecting dead?”

 

A long pause filled the space between his question and my attempt to reply: “ That’s a good question…and one a lot of us in the hobby have been asking”.

 

I suppose he felt I would have some crystal ball insight since I had authored a few books dealing with Civil War collecting, but the truth is, I haven’t collected anything Civil War related for many years.

 

But, I do watch a lot of sales and even maintain a database of recorded sales of Civil War firearms to use when updating the Standard Catalog of Civil War Firearms. The dealer’s apocalyptic question does strike some important chords in the hobby.

 

Certain areas of Civil War collecting can be best characterized as, “Flat, flat, flat!” Prices paid for some relics are the same or even less than those of ten years ago. The key in evaluating this, though, is “price paid”.

 

Many look at prices on dealer’s lists, eBay or show tables and are mistakenly led to believe that prices have been going up. This is only very minimally true. My conclusions about the state of the Civil War hobby follow. The same conclusions, however, can be applied to almost any other antique-based collectible during an economic downturn.

 

[Allan H.]

Mark- 36-Tex, thanks for posting this. Here's my take.

Allan

 

John-

I enjoyed the article and REALLY appreciated your commentary as I felt that it was spot on. I would offer a couple of observations in the realm of Civil War collectibles and will try to tie it to other areas of militaria collecting.

 

I'll start by saying that the reason that I think that CW collecting is dead is for two major reasons- the first is that it was an area of emphasis for "the old collectors" out there. I am saying this with what has turned into over 35 years of collecting experience. When I was a kid and started to collect, I figured out rather quickly that I could not afford anything that I wanted to own in the realm of CW collectibles. The only things I could afford back then were Women's Relief Corps medals and a few GAR pieces. The other aspect of CW was that even back then, there was a lot of fake stuff and mislabeled Indian War stuff that could steal your money and your motivation away from you. The other aspect of collecting CW was that those old timers didn't want to waste their time on a kid who was interested in looking at their wares. So, the old-timers are passing away and there isn't a replacement generation of collectors to move into the hobby. Of course, the last aspect of collector interest is getting some visual stimulation. We haven't had a great CW movie since "Gettysburg." Face it, "Cold Mountain" didn't have much in the way of military scenes.

 

So. Who is going to move into the void caused by the passing of the old guard? I don't know very many thirty-somethings who are willing to drop $100K for a stellar CW grouping- especially since they never got the education to know what they were buying by the collectors who had the stuff. I honestly don't know a single CW collector who is younger than his mid 60's. These guys got excited about the hobby back when the CW Centenial was being commemorated. What is motivating the next generation?

 

Let's look at a newer "dead" hobby. I would submit that DI collecting is one of the other areas of militaria collecting that is going the way of the dodo bird. The collectors that I thought of as the "Big Boys" of DI collecting have all passed on. Col. Jim Greene, Jay Masaro, Jean Edens, Peckett, etc. have all passed on. Many of the "super rare" DI's that you never saw ten years ago are sitting in display cases at the bigger events like the Max and SOS. That is because they aren't being snapped up by the advanced collectors who are looking for that ultimate trade piece. Part of this is because there isn't anyone who recognizes what these rare pieces are anymore, and the other part of the problem is that the ones who demanded trade only for their cream of the crop pieces have passed away. Most collectors don't trade for stuff anymore. It all has a value and people expect cash. The traders out there are usually trading patch for patch and are dealing on lower end items. Just like the CW collectors, these "Big Boys" didn't really do much on the whole to encourage young collectors to get interested in collecting DI's.

 

Let's look at what I thinkl is thriving right now. My opinion is that patch collecting is as strong as it has ever been. Part of the reason is that patch collectors tend to share their duplicates much more freely with younger collectors than the CW and DI crowd. Young collectors can put together a WWII or Vietnam "type" collection for not a whole lot of money. I mean, they can buy Armies, Corps, Divisions, Service Commands, Theater patches etc. for what are still reasonable prices. Sure the 101st A/B will cost them some cash, but they can get most of the others for around $5 each if they search the patch boxes and flea markets long enough. After these collectors get the base collection and study the hobby, they graduate into the harder to find. If they have deep pockets, they can get exotic and buy squadron patches, or Bando's type 34-C 101st eagle if they plop enough cash down on a table at the big shows. Wing collecting is also doing well, but I think a lot of this is because of the attitudes of some of the earlier "Giants" of the hobby shared their hobby. G. Duncan Campbell was a prince of a guy and was more than willing to talk wings with young and old collectors in an open and non-pontifical way. Col. Al Gleim and George Harris both encouraged younger collectors and took the time to talk medals whether you were looking at buying a Civil War Navy MOH or an American Campaign medal. They cultivated the crop of new collectors.

 

While I think that airborne collecting has stagnated a bit, there are still plenty of post SPR and BoB fans out there that allow the airborne pieces to command the big money. I don't see the free-fall of values that CW items are seeing now because there is so much interest right now. Sure, there are a lot of fake and doctored pieces out there, but there are a lot of fake and doctored pieces in the CW realm as well as the dark side of militaria collecting- NAZI memorabilia. For some reason, the totenkopf, swastika and sieg rune still attract large numbers of new collectors each year. This is even after the number of "real" Iron Crosses continues to grow. The fakes keep getting better and over time, they get legitimized by the "experts."

 

SO, to get to a point and cut off the rambling. Some areas of collecting are dead because of the following reasons:

1- The new crop of collectors were never cultivated by encouraging younger collectors to study the hobby more, educating them on differentiating the good and the bad pieces, and occassionally making a deal to help the younger collector get excited about his acquisitions.

2- The down-right snobby and elitist attituds exhibited by some of the Old Guard who have it all, plus duplicates that can't be had for loveor money discourage would-be collectors.

3- There is no outside draw for the non-collector to get excited about CW collectibles. Until another Band of Brothers type show comes out recounting the feats of the 20th Maine or the 5th Mississippi, there isn't going to be an influx of new collectrs clamoring to buy a bullseye canteen.

 

OK, off my soapbox.

Allan

[SARGE]

Two very thoughtful posts on the state of the hobby today.

 

I agree with much of what has been said by both John and Allan. I would like to add that Allan is right on the money with the statement that very few folks trade anymore and that is sad. Collecting has become a "business" as John states and cash is king. I doubt that we can turn the clock back at this stage and nowadays collecting "is what it is" I suspect. I would submit that I got into collecting some 50 years ago as a "hobby". Collecting was, and still is, fun for me. When it ceases to be fun I will stop collecting stuff. Some years ago our hobby seemingly turned into "investing" and that does not seem like much fun to me. I buy things that I think are underpriced, and some that are at a premium, but I don't expect a 5.5% annual return on my investment. I have not made an investment... I bought something neat for my collection and it was fun.

 

Perhaps we need to look at ourselves and our own motivation a little closer to answer the question, "Is Civil War (aka Militaria) collecting dead?"

[36-tex]

Allan and Sarge, great follow-up discussions. I continue to try and help new collectors. I agree with the premise that we do this for the enjoyment, as well as for the preserving of history. My collecting partner RADMANPATCHES and I have talked at length about these very same questions. We are committed to getting nice pieces into our collections and into the collections of others at very reasonable prices. We enjoy sharing or spreading the wealth. I have seen other members here also giving items to others. We need to see ourselves as a "family" and work together to spread the militaria collecting bug.

[jjdevi1]

If we want collecting in general to survive, we need to get the kids involved. I was lucky enough to grow up surrounded by WW2 GI's (dad, dad's friends, etc) that talked among themselves, and didn't mind the "kid" sitting there listening. Well, this sort of got me started, but what really started me was my grandfather, who was a surgeon during WW1, when he gave me his uniform, medals, etc. He was active in the American Legion, and as a result, I got to tag along. I was given a lot of stuff, well, this just fueled my interest even further.

 

Here is an example of how we can interest the next generation. I recently had 3 tables at the show in Raleigh NC. I did ok at the show, but all in all, it was beyond slow. A young boy and his dad were walking by and stopped to look through a pile of WW2 uniforms that I had on the table. The kid picked up a Navy jumper that was about his size (the kid was about 10 or so), and started asking me questions about it. Well, I took the time to answer them, and ended up giving him the jumper. Well, you would of thought I had given him the world! LOL The father took one of my cards, and called me later to thank me. Well, the kid is now saving his allowance to collect militaria, and somewhere down the road, he may be a customer, most likely not of mine, but a customer of someone. I just felt good about starting a kid out.

 

What I've noticed at shows is that dealers are gone from their tables more than they are there, some act like it is a big effort to answer questions, etc. Personally, I think the internet will be the death of all but a few large shows to a great degree. Still, I usually will only buy over the net stuff that I'm really familiar with, or from folks who I know to be upright and honest.

 

Is collecting dead? I don't think so, but for a lot of it, it has become a hobby for folks with disposible income. Frankly, unless I stumble onto one, a CW uniform is frankly out of my price range.

 

End of ramble,

 

John

[willysmb44]

I saw a mind-blowing private exhibit of CW collection stuff at Gettysburg once in the 90s. Just stumbled upon it, and I saw a lot of incredible stuff, including some of the few existing CSA coins and a complete original Berdan’s uniform. I talked with one collector (long forgotten the names) who was well into his 60s then and he said that all the “big league” CW collectors were at retirement age. He also said the stuff isn’t “hot” in collecting anymore, which I agreed it seemed to be the case for the shows I went to.

I said my theory is all the re-enacting stuff killed collecting because once a repro item has been used for a few decades, you can no longer tell without a full laboratory to run chemical tests. He said he agreed that was PART of it, but the biggest part was we just didn’t “relate” to the CW anymore, even though there are amazing numbers of re-enactors. He said those folks are NOT normally original item collectors, which I agreed with. In the end, we both had the shared opinion that more “modern” wars have captured the imagination of those who’d collect. He said, “I think most of the big CW collectors all went into German stuff or died off.”

[M60 Driver]

The problem with collecting antiques of any kind is that only the rare investment grade items in near mint condition hold their value over time. Within militaria that would be uniforms, field gear, firearms, etc. The collecting of smaller items like patches or DIs will all go the way of collecting British cap badges as social memory fades, especially social memory of a specific conflict. I am surprised that CW collecting stayed as strong as it did for so long, perhaps partially aided by the desire to preserve the stars and bars in some segments in the south and to a lesser extent elsewhere. Meanwhile few people are interested in WWI. WWII is still strong but has clearly peaked and interest will slowly fade as the last veterans pass away over the next decade. Korea really never took off. Currently it is the Vietnam stuff that is hot and gaining in value as a younger generation talks to their grandparents and uncles and connects to that conflict without carrying any of the political baggage of "my generation". The Nam gear is still available and affordable and as the younger generation collects these items, the items will become scarcer, the collectors will become older and more financially secure and be willing to pay higher prices, and then it too will peak in another 25 years and then this group of now aging collectors will be wondering why prices are falling as prices for items from the current conflicts perhaps begin to appreciate in value as the cycle begins yet again.

[Nkomo]

I am in total agreement with all the comments that have been made so far. I grew up in a "collecting family". As long as I can remember, my dad has been collecting militaria. I know for a fact he started collecting back in the 1950's. He always focused on military weapons from ANY and ALL wars. He became a big collector of Civil War firearms and this love eventually grew into him becoming a reenactor back in the late 60's/early 70's. I eventually became a Civil War reenactor like my father and began to collect around the age of 10. I couldn't afford to follow in my father's footsteps and collect any major Civil War militaria because it was out of my price range. I had to focus on other areas that were more in my $6 a week allowance range. Other than my dad and a few others, no one ever taught me about Civil War collecting. I learned from watching and hanging out with my dad when he did trades and deals. No one was interested in teaching a young collector what to look for and not get burned. I eventually got burnt out on all areas of Civil War. I quit reenacting and gave my meager collection to my dad as a gift. I moved on to other areas of collecting that were more interesting to me.

 

Fast forward to today. I am now 35 years old and have setled my militaria focus on more modern wars. My dad is 64 years old and still is an avid Civil War collector. He has an outstanding Civil War gun/knife/sword collection and a magnificent surgeon's kit. He still does some living histories, but his days of reenacting are long over.

 

I don't want this post to come across as sour grapes on my part. I just got tired of being able to only afford dug relics or other minor items. Hardly anyone that I knew wanted to take the time to educate me on what to look for as far as originals and reproductions were concerned. I found other areas of collecting were just as interesting and much more affordable to a young collector. I also found out very quickly that with more modern wars, there were a heck of a lot less reproductions. I also learned that you could find collectibles at your local surplus store or base pawn shops when the soldiers returned home.

 

On a positive note, I always enjoyed spending time with my dad going to reenactments, our yearly trips to Gettysburg, PA visitng the Horse Soldier and George Marinos, metal detecting on private land around Perryville, KY and Farmville, VA, and touring battlefields. It allowed me and my dad to spend quality time together.

 

If someone (other than my dad) would have taken the time to educate me on Civil War militaria, would I still collect Civil War today? Honestly, I don't really know. I have always liked uniforms and Civil War uniforms are WAY out of the price range even for most hardcore CW collectors. I am just now getting to the place in my life where I have some disposable income. I don't know if buying one CW item a year would have satisfied my voracious appetite for militaria. Whatever the case, I will become a CW collector again within the next 20 or 25 years, as my dad can't live forever. This time however, becoming a CW collector will not be by my choice. It will be thrust upon me by circumstances beyond my control.

Arch

[Bluehawk]

Allan and Sarge, great follow-up discussions. I continue to try and help new collectors. I agree with the premise that we do this for the enjoyment, as well as for the preserving of history. My collecting partner RADMANPATCHES and I have talked at length about these very same questions. We are committed to getting nice pieces into our collections and into the collections of others at very reasonable prices. We enjoy sharing or spreading the wealth. I have seen other members here also giving items to others. We need to see ourselves as a "family" and work together to spread the militaria collecting bug.

Thanks to you both, for all the encouragement you have given to me, personally.

 

Nice article, much appreciated.