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Alec

Droop Wing Cap Badges

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I see in the reference section that there is debate about the Marine Corps purchasing Droop Wing EGAs especially for caps. My two cents is that the Marine Corps may have switched procurement techniques and now required the cap manuafcturer to supply the EGAs hence the reason for the less than quality 1930s style cast EGAs that are quite predominant. The cap manufacturers may or may not have received permission to manufacture an EGA different than the current approved style. Once made the Corps may have just accepted them as they were and moved on. The cap companies were just putting on the least expensive badge they could make and get away with.

 

Enlisted Marines were given full uniforms including all required insgnia. I have a 1932 Marine Corps listing of all items from uniforms to weapons and their associated cost. If the Corps did no puchase it then there would not be an aasociated cost. I will dig it out and see if there are cap badges listed.


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A1C Matthew Seidler, Delta Company, 466th EOD killed in action. 05 Jan 12 at 1600L while conducting mounted route clearance patrols in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. He turned 24 two days before his death. Cousin, Soldier, Hero.

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Alex, look forward to the additional info. s/f Darrell



The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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1928 as well as 1932 Marine Corps Price List of Clothing shows EM allowance of clothing including EGAs for caps and collars.

 

Cost are listed below. Interesting large decrease in cost from 1928 to 1932 for the Bronze Cap Badge.

 

1928 Bronze (Cap and Hat) .13 cents

Bronze Collar .09 per pair

Gilt Cap .10 each

Gilt Collar .11 per pair

 

1932 Bronze (Cap and hat) .05 each

Bronze Collar .10 per pair

Gilt Cap .05 each

Gilt Collar .09 per pair


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A1C Matthew Seidler, Delta Company, 466th EOD killed in action. 05 Jan 12 at 1600L while conducting mounted route clearance patrols in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. He turned 24 two days before his death. Cousin, Soldier, Hero.

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that's a drastic drop in price on the cover pieces from 28 to 32...

 

I'll pay double


-Brig
GySgt/USMC/0369
RSU-Quantico


"FOR OUR TOMORROWS, THEY GAVE THEIR TODAYS"
RIP
Sgt Jesse 'Jeff Nasty' Balthaser
Sgt John P Huling
Cpl Carlos 'Gilo Monster' Gilorozco
Cpl Stephen C 'Socks' Sockalosky
LCpl Joshua A 'Scottie' Scott
LCpl Jason Lee 'Birdman' Frye
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LCpl Osbrany 'Oz' Montes De Oca
Pvt Lewis T D Calapini
'The SOI 5'

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1933 dated letter from USMC QM to Hilborn and Hamburger states the following:

 

drooping wing type is one that was recently adopted for limited use only and has not superseded for the cap and hat for enlisted men.

 

I guess this might account for cost differential from 1928 to 1932.


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A1C Matthew Seidler, Delta Company, 466th EOD killed in action. 05 Jan 12 at 1600L while conducting mounted route clearance patrols in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. He turned 24 two days before his death. Cousin, Soldier, Hero.

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1933 dated letter from USMC QM to Hilborn and Hamburger states the following:

 

drooping wing type is one that was recently adopted for limited use only and has not superseded for the cap and hat for enlisted men.

 

I guess this might account for cost differential from 1928 to 1932.

 

Alec - A most interesting discovery for the USMC Emblem collector as it indicates limited production of the M-1926 style emblem and therefore the scarcity of these emblems. They may have been classified as a 'test'. Word is most Marines did not like the shape of the eagle. I have an H-H marked dress 'droopy' to a Marine who entered in 1934 and a bronze officer M-1926 'droopy' to a Marine officer commissioned in 1930.

Thanks for posting. Can you post the full letter for reference?

Semper Fi......Bob


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"I have only two men out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (Message sent by 1st Lt. Clifton B. Cates. USMC, 96th Co., Soissons, 19 July 1918 - later 19th Commandant of the Marine Corps 1948-1952)

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1933 dated letter from USMC QM to Hilborn and Hamburger states the following:

 

drooping wing type is one that was recently adopted for limited use only and has not superseded for the cap and hat for enlisted men.

 

I guess this might account for cost differential from 1928 to 1932.

Tha makes me wonder if the QM"s office meant to say "adopted for optional use only"



The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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Here is the document.

post-7194-1286050762.jpg


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A1C Matthew Seidler, Delta Company, 466th EOD killed in action. 05 Jan 12 at 1600L while conducting mounted route clearance patrols in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. He turned 24 two days before his death. Cousin, Soldier, Hero.

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Here is the document.

 

Thank you, Alec. Any chance you have the illustrations referred too in the document?

Semper Fi......Bob


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"I have only two men out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (Message sent by 1st Lt. Clifton B. Cates. USMC, 96th Co., Soissons, 19 July 1918 - later 19th Commandant of the Marine Corps 1948-1952)

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The best I can do for the meantime but it does get the point across and shows what exactly they are talking about.

post-7194-1286079038.jpg


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A1C Matthew Seidler, Delta Company, 466th EOD killed in action. 05 Jan 12 at 1600L while conducting mounted route clearance patrols in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. He turned 24 two days before his death. Cousin, Soldier, Hero.

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Here is the document.

 

In reading that it is clear they are saying that the cap and hat EGA has not changed to the droopy style. So this raises the question of whether the few droop wing cap EGA's were basically mistakes? Did anyone besides HH make them?

 

Major Mike, what say ye - how scarce are these?



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In reading that it is clear they are saying that the cap and hat EGA has not changed to the droopy style. So this raises the question of whether the few droop wing cap EGA's were basically mistakes? Did anyone besides HH make them?

 

Major Mike, what say ye - how scarce are these?

 

 

Thanks Alec! Major Bob says they are very scarce! The plot also thickens! Note that there is NO 'droopy' Hat badge in the illustration. The reference is to collars. Was the 'droopy" hat badge ever officially authorized for wear in regulations? Have to wonder now. Is the picture scan fron the USMC or from H-H? My two 'droopy' pieces are H-H made. Unsure if there are other manufacturers. My 2-cents. What do you other Emblem guys think about this startling new development?

Semper Fi......Bob


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"I have only two men out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (Message sent by 1st Lt. Clifton B. Cates. USMC, 96th Co., Soissons, 19 July 1918 - later 19th Commandant of the Marine Corps 1948-1952)

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... What do you other Emblem guys think about this startling new development?

Semper Fi......Bob

Bob, as is often the case, one clue will often lead to more questions. The foremost being, why was H&H writing to the QM office on the topic of this specific emblem? Were they preparing a bid? Were they attemping to determine which emblem to use for the next production run? Did they want to know if the Cap emblems were ever going to be used? And on and on.

 

It has been said for many years there was a wide spread dis-like for the emblems. Is this confirmed with the existance of this letter? The adoption of the new emblem in 25 was delayed, to be obligatory in 28, may be an indication the distain for the goony design. Or perhaps, was it a decision based of the fiscal restraints faced by the QM office during the depths of the depression (the number of enlisted had dropped from over 19,000 in the 20's to 14,000 in 33)?

 

Clearly the letter & pic's suggests to us, there was no official change to the Gooney Cap Emblems, which indicates those that exist were private purchase from H&H, Pasquale, or the umarked and continue to be the "Holy Grail" of enlisted emblems.



The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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Image I posted was from regs. I guess I need to spend more money and find answer for you all.


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A1C Matthew Seidler, Delta Company, 466th EOD killed in action. 05 Jan 12 at 1600L while conducting mounted route clearance patrols in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. He turned 24 two days before his death. Cousin, Soldier, Hero.

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Thanks Alec! Major Bob says they are very scarce!

 

So can we go so far as to call them...... "rare?"

 

It would be interesting to see the letter from HH which resulted in the Marine Corps' response: I would bet it was along the lines of, "Oops we produced some drooping wing cap ornaments. Is that okay?"



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Image I posted was from regs. I guess I need to spend more money and find answer for you all.

That may be a lifetimes work. Of note, Colonel Driscoll's reference work in the 60's published in 71 does not even show an example Officer's or Enlisted Cap Emblem. They were widely know to exist, even then. That also leaves me asking why? :think:



The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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That may be a lifetimes work. Of note, Colonel Driscoll's reference work in the 60's published in 71 does not even show an example Officer's or Enlisted Cap Emblem. They were widely know to exist, even then. That also leaves me asking why? :think:

 

When I found these records 8 years ago the archivist said he had never seen the style of box they were stored in before. Maybe Driscoll was not aware of these records. If he didn't find anything maybe he thought it was non-the.


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A1C Matthew Seidler, Delta Company, 466th EOD killed in action. 05 Jan 12 at 1600L while conducting mounted route clearance patrols in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. He turned 24 two days before his death. Cousin, Soldier, Hero.

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As they say, a picture is worth a 1000 words. So, for the "passerbyes" on this thread here are a few pics of the emblems under discussion. In looking I discovered that my earlier comments on manufacturers were incorrect. The dress enlisted emblem is made by H&H

 

Big_Droopy_H_H_OBV.JPGBig_Droopy_H_H_REV.CU_HM.JPG

The Fire Bronze Officer Service emblem is made by N.S. Meyer.

 

Meyer_Officer_Big_Droopy_Hat_OBV.JPGMeyer_Officer_Big_Droopy_Hat_REV.JPG

 

Semper Fi.....Bob


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"I have only two men out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (Message sent by 1st Lt. Clifton B. Cates. USMC, 96th Co., Soissons, 19 July 1918 - later 19th Commandant of the Marine Corps 1948-1952)

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Have this Blackinton Ad in my pic files. Believe it's from about 1942. Read the text. It's misleading and one has to wonder if they actually were selling the mis-labeled Officer insignia at that time.

Semper Fi.....Bob

 

 

Blackinton_EGA_AD.jpg


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"I have only two men out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (Message sent by 1st Lt. Clifton B. Cates. USMC, 96th Co., Soissons, 19 July 1918 - later 19th Commandant of the Marine Corps 1948-1952)

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Have this Blackinton Ad in my pic files. Believe it's from about 1942. Reasd the text. It's misleading and one has to wonder if they actually were selling the mis-labeled Officer insignia at that time.

Semper Fi.....Bob

Blackinton_EGA_AD.jpg

Hi Bob, had forgotten about posting this ad long ago... bought it after having come up short on one hallmarked (for Service Dress) Blackinton years ago. I do not recall ever seeing another... perhaps salesman sample?



The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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The Pasquale version - have also seen the Service Dress version.

gooney.JPG



The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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The Pasquale version - have also seen the Service Dress version.

 

Good one, Darrel. My guess is that H&H made these for sale by Pasquale. As far I know Pasquale was not a manufacturer. Have you ever seen a Meyer-marked EM 'droopy' in either version?

S/F.....Bob


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"I have only two men out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (Message sent by 1st Lt. Clifton B. Cates. USMC, 96th Co., Soissons, 19 July 1918 - later 19th Commandant of the Marine Corps 1948-1952)

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Here's an enlisted dress hat emblem made by Meyer with the marking "OROID" on one of the flukes.

 

Steve

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Hi Bob, had forgotten about posting this ad long ago... bought it after having come up short on one hallmarked (for Service Dress) Blackinton years ago. I do not recall ever seeing another... perhaps salesman sample?

 

Hey Darrell! I forgot that it was you who scored this Blackinton Ad & posted it. Hope you don't mind me re-posting it on this thread! Thank you!

Semper Fi.....Bob


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"I have only two men out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (Message sent by 1st Lt. Clifton B. Cates. USMC, 96th Co., Soissons, 19 July 1918 - later 19th Commandant of the Marine Corps 1948-1952)

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