MACVSOG Bomb Burst from "The Millionaire Collection"

[all-bull]

Hello,

I do not really want to say one way or the other on this particular patch, but I would like to bring up some points that should be recognized. First off, while the patch may have been cut from its original design, it does not make this patch any newer. No matter how we cut the slice, it is still a 35+ year old patch, and I think we can all agree on that. Secondly, for those of us who collect Vietnam patches, we realize that there is a lot "gray" in the elite unit patches. Sure, most patches can be found to be 100% "right" or 100% wrong within minutes, but we all have to take a step out of our safety zone, and think outside of the box of this one. This patch does not fit any "textbook" example of a "right" or "wrong" patch. However, we have to remember that the majority of WORN SF and RT patches came from all over SEA. I am not talking about the period RT patches we see for sale, which were made in Vietnam...I am talking about the patches that were WORN during the war on SF uniforms...IF they CHOSE to wear them. These patches could have came from Vietnam, Taiwan, Thailand, and Okinawa to name a few places.

 

Below, I would like to show a patch from our collection. I will not show a full photo of the front or back. When Bob described what the MACVSOG patch felt like, I immediately thought of this patch. This patch came from a very advanced SF collection, and has been seen and handled by two very notable authors, neither of which has had a problem with it. It has been removed from some part of a uniform. I will say no more, except that it does seem to be made during the same time and probably the same place as the MACVSOG in question. The brown is not "aging"...it is just glue residue from the board it was mounted on.

 

I just think we need to keep an open mind. Just because a supposed Vietnam War patch is not Vietnam made, does not mean it is not Vietnam era.

[NobleLoyalGSD]

Hello,

I do not really want to say one way or the other on this particular patch, but I would like to bring up some points that should be recognized. First off, while the patch may have been cut from its original design, it does not make this patch any newer. No matter how we cut the slice, it is still a 35+ year old patch, and I think we can all agree on that. Secondly, for those of us who collect Vietnam patches, we realize that there is a lot "gray" in the elite unit patches. Sure, most patches can be found to be 100% "right" or 100% wrong within minutes, but we all have to take a step out of our safety zone, and think outside of the box of this one. This patch does not fit any "textbook" example of a "right" or "wrong" patch. However, we have to remember that the majority of WORN SF and RT patches came from all over SEA. I am not talking about the period RT patches we see for sale, which were made in Vietnam...I am talking about the patches that were WORN during the war on SF uniforms...IF they CHOSE to wear them. These patches could have came from Vietnam, Taiwan, Thailand, and Okinawa to name a few places.

 

Below, I would like to show a patch from our collection. I will not show a full photo of the front or back. When Bob described what the MACVSOG patch felt like, I immediately thought of this patch. This patch came from a very advanced SF collection, and has been seen and handled by two very notable authors, neither of which has had a problem with it. It has been removed from some part of a uniform. I will say no more, except that it does seem to be made during the same time and probably the same place as the MACVSOG in question. The brown is not "aging"...it is just glue residue from the board it was mounted on.

 

I just think we need to keep an open mind. Just because a supposed Vietnam War patch is not Vietnam made, does not mean it is not Vietnam era.

 

First off, nice RT Kentucky patch. But...it's getting a tad tiresome that the blessed gurus of patch collecting never are obligated to articulate what it is that convinces them of an item's authenticity beyond "feel" and expecting the masses to trust in their experience with little else presented. Most every time something like this comes up, the rest of us who aren't in the status quo are expected to place blind trust in the opinions of the same people who preach condescendingly that we need to keep an open mind.

 

The reverse of the RT Kentucky patch does NOT possess the same characteristics as the reverse of the MACV SOG patch in question so what's the point other than supporting your own item with the same hunches, notions or vagaries? I once saw a UFO. I know because I saw it and the two other people with me saw it too and couldn't come up with any other explanation for it.

 

I've witnessed these debates from time to time for almost three years since I've been on this forum. Very few people are willing to seriously challenge the perceptions of the "experts". Frankly I'm tired of seeing free passes given out on everything that comes up for review and am tired of the cronyism that protects them. Hey, I got this awesome RT Kentucky patch but I can't show the whole thing and you'll have to take my word for it that some other authorities looked at it, too and thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Making such a presentation on the forum doesn't educate anyone and only seems to allay, perhaps, your own doubts about the item. Such snobbery.

 

Could I be wrong about the MACVSOG patch? Certainly. Let's just try to be more articulate about our hunches, can we?

 

Gee whiz!

[vintageproductions]

Obviously we are not all going to agree on everything. I personally do not care whether you agree with me or not, my world will not end, and I wont type an message complaining about the "Experts, gurus, etc".

No one has to agree with me on the above patch. I have handled enough Nam made pieces to know what is good and what is not. I have handled off uniform pieces, "Team" pieces, and made for collector items. It is all I personally have collected since I started in the late 1970's. I also make my living off of selling original Vietnam patches. As we all know when you actually handle a piece, not just look at photos, a piece will either "talk" or it won't. This piece "talked".

Also, like I said earlier, it is not my patch nor am I cheerleader for this seller. But, I hate seeing things posted here or on other forums, where someone looks at a photo and just mouths off that it is fake. When you have handled it in person, then you can make these statements.

[NobleLoyalGSD]

Obviously we are not all going to agree on everything. I personally do not care whether you agree with me or not, my world will not end, and I wont type an message complaining about the "Experts, gurus, etc".

No one has to agree with me on the above patch. I have handled enough Nam made pieces to know what is good and what is not. I have handled off uniform pieces, "Team" pieces, and made for collector items. It is all I personally have collected since I started in the late 1970's. I also make my living off of selling original Vietnam patches. As we all know when you actually handle a piece, not just look at photos, a piece will either "talk" or it won't. This piece "talked".

Also, like I said earlier, it is not my patch nor am I cheerleader for this seller. But, I hate seeing things posted here or on other forums, where someone looks at a photo and just mouths off that it is fake. When you have handled it in person, then you can make these statements.

 

Exactly what I'm talking about. The sheer arrogance of not having to explain one's opinion. Simply "trust me, I know better."

[vintageproductions]

Okay, then here comes your explanation:

 

1. Since you "make" so many patches you should understand some basics of embroidery. The patches you are referring to that were sold by Brigade Quartermaster, Lancer Militaria and about every other "surplus " store, were all made and manufactiured by computer embroidery. When computer embroidery is done every patch will have a uniformed appearance ( size, thickness, colors, etc). This patch in question, is very thick and is more like squadron patches made in the 60's, then the mass produced surplus store specials.

 

2. The embroidery on this patch is not US or mass produced Taiwanese. You manufacture Vietnamese patches yourself, so you should understand how no two will be alike when they are individually made. But, if it is computer embroidered, they are all going to be exactly the same, unless a thread bobbin runs out. This type stitching used on this patch is either Japanese or special embroidered Taiwan made. Special embroidered Taiwan made from this time period looks nothing like the mass produced items you are referring to. The quality is super high and rivals Japanese made items. You will especially see this type embroidery on real "team" patches.

 

3. Next the colors are not the type you see on most mass produced Taiwanese items. They use a treated thread that rarely fades or bleeds. The way this patch has bled it is definately more of a hand made / custom made piece not a mass produced model.

 

4. Now on to the size. Most of those Surplus made SOG patches were made as shoulder patch sized, with an occasional jacket size. Even if you trimmed one of these it would be very hard to get the size or shape this one has.

 

You asked for a explanation so here it is. I am sorry you feel everyone is a croney of everyone else or that I show sheer arrogance about Vietnamese patches. I do not know you or believe we have ever even met, but you obviously have a problem with me personally. What it is I don't know. There are a lot of collectors on this forum that have been doing Vietnam as long as I have. After you have done this for a long time you can rely on the touch / feel of an item.

I know you have a specialty in Dog Handler items, this is by far not one of my main interests, and chances are I wouldn't comment on an item, if it popped up here on the forum from just looking at a photo. But, I would trust your comments as I know it is your main area. One of my main areas is Special Forces Vietnam insignia. I feel very comfortable with my knowledge on this subject.

[NobleLoyalGSD]

Your taking the time to present your detailed explanation to the forum is appreciated.

 

I still take issue with all the points you've made, however it is much more constructive to see a detailed explanation of where you're coming from when you state something is authentic or not. While it doesn't settle arguments, it does create understanding.

 

As for cronyism on the forum, that is another matter. For what it's worth I don't have any personal issues with you. Like it or not you are admired and your expertise is highly valued. Perhaps that is why it is nice to hear a more thorough explanation of your reasoning once in awhile. Without that, your views sometimes comes across as arrogant.

[vintageproductions]

Going back and rereading everything today, I can totally see all points on this. But, I want to add again, in person this patch does not look like this scan. I don't know how to explain it, but it looks completely different in person.

I would like to say agin, I have nothing to do with this seller, so I am not trying to defend his items. In fact, the seller has been on here numerous times reading this post, as I have seen his name at the bottom, when I have been looking at it, and has never commented.

[Bill Scott]

I have been looking at this post shaking my head wondering what some people want for answers.Bob Chatt early on stated he had this insignia in his hands and knows its correct I believe Bob Chatt.I have owned with out exageration 75000-80000 Vietnamese made patches.The last large collection I bought had over 20000 Viet made pieces in it alone.Bod Chatt went through every piece and seperated good from bad I trust his judgement completely.Some times what is taken as arrogance is 25 to 35 years of handling items from the dirt common to the very best there is to be had. And then knowing collectors who have collections second to none and have shared them with you and with that you get a little more educated than most on a subject you love.Can we be wrong you bet we can and I and Bob would be the first to admit it case in point 2 months ago I put a great bunch of SOG patches on ebay.Dennis Kim from Hawaii took the time to first email me and then phone me to tell me three of them were bad and why ;with his knowledge I learned more.I was still out 600.00 but my knowledge of telling good from bad had increased 10 fold. I then sent them to another well known Vietnam expert on repro items for his fake collection at no charge.This should be a teaching tool just like ASMIC is and not a place for potshots and name calling.I think sometimes a phone call instead of tapping out messages is still the best.Bill Scott

[34BDQ]

Collecting anything is a life long experience of learning and handling. As I have always told my 2 sons, in collecting knowledge is power.

 

To expand on what Bill mentioned, I explained what I thought was suspect and why. In closing, I told him to contact Bob, who has far more experience than I would ever be able to amass to double check on who I believed was the possible source.

 

I like many trust Bob’s opinions because of his experience over the many years of handling

all areas of Militaria.

 

When I had to have heart surgery I checked out and selected the best surgeon. If I was

spending hard earned dollars for a specific piece that I was uncertain of, who would you call?

Bill and Bob would be two of my choices!!!!!!!

[WINGS-PATCHES]

I wasn't going to add a post here, but given that I am a Ebay seller/consignee of this patch, and given that Bob Chatt has alluded to my reading the posts, I thought I might chime in, more in line with what the estimable Bill Scott said than in defense of the patch.

 

As to the patch, I showed all the SF patches to Bob in person, and showed the wings and squadron patches to John Conway in person. There are no two people whose essential honesty and expertise I would trust more in these respective fields. And furthermore neither is a "sharp dealer" in real life aside from the hobby, and believe me I know what a sharp dealer is. When we first weeded through the collection I was advised to and followed up by discarding about $500,000 dollars worth of fake stuff this rather uninformed buyer had bought from "trusted" dealers (you probably know their names by now).

 

Nobody is perfect and when I have posted items that made it past some of the experts but were deemed suspect by super-specialists (such as a WASP wing that David Hill - the wing guy, not the Brit Pretenders patch guy, thought was wrong) I removed it immediately. I am more than willing to remove junk from my Ebay postings, but as a dealer (and as a lawyer) nothing in the negative posts of this thread has been anywhere near convincing let alone dispositive. Bob was kind enough to examine the patches carefully and was offered nothing: no remuneration in return; it was an act of kindness and an act of caring that the hobby not be tarnished by sales of crap. Yes, maybe the patch is wrong, and maybe little green aliens ..... blah blah blah

 

One more thing for what it is worth, when you get old you write thie following which younger people consider blather: self-indulgent posts that border on defamation or are spiteful (and one I think written by an Ebay competitor for obvious self-aggrandizing reasons) are what drive people off the board, certainly they have kept me away for years. Yes, you have your free speech, but the cost to the board and the hobby is high when you exercise your rights with high-school malice and upsmanship ... you think you win, the rest of us know the only loser is the civility that is a cornerstone of a forum like this one.

[NobleLoyalGSD]

Yes, you have your free speech, but the cost to the board and the hobby is high when you exercise your rights with high-school malice and upsmanship ... you think you win, the rest of us know the only loser is the civility that is a cornerstone of a forum like this one.

 

Eloquent, but off the mark. You've read cronyism to mean that VintageProductions is purposely authenticating an item for the profit of you and himself either in the past, now, or the future. That is not what was being referred to, nobody here said that and nobody really believes that including myself. If, however, your conscience is so guilty that that is how you've chosen to perceive the remark, then you'll have to address that with the man in the mirror.

 

The cronyism I refer to is exactly what now continues to be posted. I trust Bob's judgment and expertise and have sought it out in the past. I am also acquainted with Mr. Conway and I believe his character and integrity to be stellar as well. Having said that, I will continue to (and encourage all) to never place blind trust in anyone. I originally posted a rational argument for why I thought that an item was a suspected copy/fake. Why is it that those of far greater experience than myself are allowed to simply say that it is or isn't without any (or very little) constructive, rational explanation?

 

The real loser is every individual who who seeks to educate themselves here. Of course civility is important and it's also a relative term, however the cornerstone of a forum like this one is objective peer review. Not "I trust so-and-so, and so should you."

[WINGS-PATCHES]

Eloquent, but off the mark. You've read cronyism to mean that VintageProductions is purposely authenticating an item for the profit of you and himself either in the past, now, or the future. That is not what was being referred to, nobody here said that and nobody really believes that including myself. If, however, your conscience is so guilty that that is how you've chosen to perceive the remark, then you'll have to address that with the man in the mirror.

 

The cronyism I refer to is exactly what now continues to be posted. I trust Bob's judgment and expertise and have sought it out in the past. I am also acquainted with Mr. Conway and I believe his character and integrity to be stellar as well. Having said that, I will continue to (and encourage all) to never place blind trust in anyone. I originally posted a rational argument for why I thought that an item was a suspected copy/fake. Why is it that those of far greater experience than myself are allowed to simply say that it is or isn't without any (or very little) constructive, rational explanation?

 

The real loser is every individual who who seeks to educate themselves here. Of course civility is important and it's also a relative term, however the cornerstone of a forum like this one is objective peer review. Not "I trust so-and-so, and so should you."

[WINGS-PATCHES]

"If, however, your conscience is so guilty that that is how you've chosen to perceive the remark, then you'll have to address that with the man in the mirror."

Civility breached: my point proven.

[NobleLoyalGSD]

"If, however, your conscience is so guilty that that is how you've chosen to perceive the remark, then you'll have to address that with the man in the mirror."

Civility breached: my point proven.

Feel free to take as much rope as you need. :thumbsup:

[Manchu Warrior]

I have noticed lately that the forum has turned a corner. And it doesn't seem to be a good one.

[kjones5452]

I'm just sittin and waitin for the same thing to happen the next time somebody shows up with a helmet

that their curious about.

[Corpsmancollector]

The real loser is every individual who who seeks to educate themselves here.

 

I'm sorry but maybe I've misread something, what do you mean by the above? I don't know if this patch is an original from the next one since I'm not a patch collector, but grandiose statements such as the above really overstep the mark by implying that members of the forum who come here to learn, share and develop knowledge of US militaria are the real losers? I'm sorry but I don't buy that at all and I think some explanation is required. Maybe I've read your post wrong and if so, apologies.

[NobleLoyalGSD]

I'm sorry but maybe I've misread something, what do you mean by the above? I don't know if this patch is an original from the next one since I'm not a patch collector, but grandiose statements such as the above really overstep the mark by implying that members of the forum who come here to learn, share and develop knowledge of US militaria are the real losers? I'm sorry but I don't buy that at all and I think some explanation is required. Maybe I've read your post wrong and if so, apologies.

 

Hi Corpsman,

I think the post was read wrong, but given everything that has been written that is understandable.

 

I wasn't suggesting that members were losers in the social sense of being pathetic or worthless. I meant that we all lose (in reference to Wings-Patches comments) when there is a lack of objective peer review - which is what I believe to have occurred on this thread and in the past when other esteemed collectors (those whom I referred to as experts) jump in to defend their colleagues with the same lack of explanation. They are a wealth of information but say very little in imparting that knowledge to others. ie: we either place blind trust or more forcefully challenge their views. (I use "we" in the general sense).

 

For the record, VintageProductions and I have corresponded through PM and I assure the forum members that civility truly does exist in the midst of what may seem to be chaos.

[Corpsmancollector]

Hi Corpsman,

I think the post was read wrong, but given everything that has been written that is understandable.

 

I wasn't suggesting that members were losers in the social sense of being pathetic or worthless. I meant that we all lose (in reference to Wings-Patches comments) when there is a lack of objective peer review - which is what I believe to have occurred on this thread and in the past when other esteemed collectors (those whom I referred to as experts) jump in to defend their colleagues with the same lack of explanation. They are a wealth of information but say very little in imparting that knowledge to others. ie: we either place blind trust or more forcefully challenge their views. (I use "we" in the general sense).

 

For the record, VintageProductions and I have corresponded through PM and I assure the forum members that civility truly does exist in the midst of what may seem to be chaos.

 

Thanks for the explanation, having re-read your posts I understand what you mean and I must have misinterpreted your comment :thumbsup:

[blue7289]

Think about this, given the secrecy of the unit at the time (SOG) and the timeline after the Green Beret trial until their "official" departure from Vietnam, would a patch have Mac V Sog on it? The patch in question I believe is a late period patch. The details for this are in the construction, however, I would also classify this as a novelty patch.

[blue7289]

Anyone, have an opinion one way or the other on the novelty issue?

[blue7289]

Yeah, thread dead...novelty.

[vintageproductions]

If that is the case, then every SOG patch is also a novelty.

All SOG members wore their pocket patches when they could. Of course not on missions but around camp etc. I know you have Jason's new book. Just look at the RT Copperhead photos with the guys in Saigon wearing them on their jungle fatigues, while standing next to a public street.

[itshistory]

Any one want to weight in on this one?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IH

[itshistory]

oops, here's the back side.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IH