M5A1 Bayonets being sold by the CMP

[bayonetman]

On July 5th, the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) began selling a large quantity of M5A1 bayonets that had been acquired from Greece. The first ones that have reached the buyers hands have created a bit of controversy, and some rather irate comments.

 

http://www.thecmp.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20146

 

Orest Michaels was good enough to post the information on the packing crates which is as follows:

 

30 each

C/C 12/76

DAAA09-76-C-6658

CU. .77 WT. 25

1005-00-336-8568

 

This indicates that the US Army Armaments Command contracted for these bayonets under contract 6658 in 1976. The bayonets that have been sold so far are marked as manufactured by MILPAR COL and have the highly angled runout/backcut associated with commercial production.

 

 

It APPEARS that these bayonets were manufactured by MILPAR COL (Columbus Milpar and Manufacturing Company, Columbus, Ohio) in 1976-77 to fill a military assistance order for Greece. These bayonets were not US issue, and many of the buyers apparently feel that they are not as desirable as those which were made for US issue.

 

There are thousands of bayonets in CMP inventory, and there will most likely be others that were not procured under this contract. For instance, there is a record of the US supplying 17,538 M5A1 bayonets in 1963 and these were probably US surplus. So what the CMP sells in the future may well be something different from what is currently being sold.

 

If anyone happens to go to either of the CMP stores and views the bayonets being sold, I would appreciate any comments on what you see.

[m1ashooter]

Thank you for the info. I've been watching the moaning and groaning on the CMP site since these bayonets came open for sale. Nowhere are they described as USGI in the product description on E Store so the buyers are assuming because they came from Greece that they are US Surplus, but many are also thinking that the Greek cartridge belts are the best thing since canned beer was invented.

 

I think many of the CMP buyers have started thinking that the CMP is their source of cheap goods and then wine when they don't get what they want, when they want it. I think the price of the M5 is a reasonable price based on the market.

 

I can't wait to see them falling all over themselves when the M1 and M1905's become available. They will not be sold cheap IMHO.

[SKIPH]

Hey Gang! Noticed the banter on the CMP site also. As far as M5's are concerned, it seems that there are plenty at all the gun & militaria shows that one can get a hands-on inspection. I don't think we're at a critical stage yet. Prices both at shows and CMP seem in line. At least at the shows you can look for the one you want to round out a collection, not sure if CMP is doing any preferences on manufacturer yet. Two weeks ago I bought from a local store a JD Tool , M5-1, plus an Aerial M-6, both excellent w/ only a little scabbard wear, and original edge. Paid $50 each. Filled 2 holes. Now, if I can find a Utica M5. Anyway, they're out there in numbers, and in good shape, with reasonable prices, just gotta look. SKIP

[Misfit-45]

Hi folks, I look on Ebay more than any other area for bayonets, and as far as plentiful goes, USGI M5A1 bayonets (not M5s) are much harder to find than M1s or M4s or just about any post war bayonet. (Ok, rare M7s notwithstanding) As of this moment there are 21 M5A1s on ebay and not a single one is USGI.

As for the Greek M5A1s by CMP, I would be mad too if I got one with the swoop backcut (obviously unless it was J&D) I still have questions about the DAS. I could have sworn that Gary said that some USGI production escaped without the DAS, but now I'm not sure

Here's an Imperial I bought a couple of weeks ago. It has the 90 degree back cut that it should, but it has no DAS. .

Honest opinions welcome about the possibility that this M5A1 bayonet is or isn't USGI. (the last pic is an Imperial with the DAS.)

[bayonetman]

I can't say too much about the M5A1 Imperial without the DAS. The records I have been able to find are incomplete, so I don't have accurate contract dates for Imperial.

 

I have had reports of Imperial packaging dated into the mid 1960s, possibly later. It is doubtful that regular US military requirements would have required contracts past the early part of the 1960s with the amount of M1 bayonets and M5/M5A1 purchases that were on hand.

 

I believe that the DAS mark was discontinued CIRCA 1965 - that is not a definite date. However, I have yet to see an M7 bayonet that has the DAS although I am not saying that they do not exist.

 

So AT A GUESS, M5A1 bayonets without the DAS were intended for filling military assistance orders, not for regular US military issue.

[SKIPH]

Had to check my records on my m5's. Imperial , Aerial, and JD Tool all have DAS. Now, I can't remember if my Milpar does, or what the backcut is. I'm gonna refrain from looking right now. I have had that one at least 20 years, so maybe it's right. Gotta go --thunderstorm. SKIP

[elyisum]

My M5's with a M4

 

What does the DAS stand for ?

 

[Cal30M1]

My M5's with a M4

 

What does the DAS stand for ?

 

(Defense) Department Acceptance Stamp IIRC. :thumbsup:

[elyisum]

(Defense) Department Acceptance Stamp IIRC. :thumbsup:

 

 

Thanks

[SKIPH]

Well, storm ended. Checked my Milpar M5A1. Cut back is correct, but no DAS. Also appears to have been refinished in black.Tang does not go through pommel. looks like drill holes??? Didn't know better at that time, or had Gary's book. Oh well, I'll keep my eye out for a more correct one. SKIP

[gunbarrel]

Just to clarify (for the new collectors), not all military issue M5's have a DAS. This Utica from my collection is pre-DAS and as you can see, they were still using the "flaming bomb" ordnance acceptance stamp.

 

[gunbarrel]

Utica M5

 

[gunbarrel]

Utica M5

 

[gunbarrel]

Bayonet practice at Ft. Dix - 1960

 

[SKIPH]

Gunbarrel-The Utica has raised lettering for the US M5? WOW! I never knew that. No wonder they're hard to find. That's really cool! Thanks for the great photos. SKIP

[Misfit-45]

I let one Utica M5 slip away from me. Haven't seen one since.! You have a very nice one!!

BTW Thanks Gary for the update on the M5A1. I talked to Bill Humes about M7s having a DAS. He's never seen one either. If he hasn't seen one, then they probably don't exist.

Marv

[gunbarrel]

Thanks, Skip & Marv. Skip, I'm sorry my photo misguided you; it's the result of the lighting. It was very hard to take this photo. Anyway, the Utica U.S. M5 mark does not have raised letters.

[SKIPH]

Gunbarrel- I just looked at that stamp about 3-4 times with a big magnifying glass. You right about the lighting. Must have also been the angle of light, cool illusion. But, it is not raised. Appreciate the clarification. I'd be walking around the rest of my life looking for a Utica w/ raised letters. LOL!! THX SKIP

[Misfit-45]

Speaking of unusual M5 bayonets, Here's an Imperial M5 (not M5A1) with a starburst stake on the pommel.

Marv

[bayonetman]

I posted this on one of the CMP forums, and decided I would also post it here to help clear the air on the bayonets that they are selling.

 

I have continued to gather more information since my book came out, and even to some extent since I wrote about the M5 and M5A1 on Bayonet Points.

 

What I called "commercial" can be looked at in two ways:

 

1. Bayonets made under US contract and inspection, but were intended for sale/military aid to some other country. Not intended for issue to US troops. The MilPar 1976 contract bayonets fall into this category.

 

2. Sales by the contractor of bayonets that were overruns or from leftover parts to surplus dealers or the like. In many cases made to military specs, but never accepted by the US military. These were sometimes also sold directly to a foreign country and did not pass through the US military system.

 

The most common maker of M5A1 "commercial" bayonets was certainly MilPar. When they closed up, their remaining inventory was sold to a large surplus dealer who assembled all sorts of bayonets and knives from the parts and even had some parts made in order to use up other parts. Imperial also sold some on the commercial market after their contracts ended. I have no knowledge of any quantity of "commercial" bayonets sold by Aerial or J&D Tool although they both may have sold off small numbers after they finished their contracts.

 

Their have been fairly large numbers of "copies" made in other countries, especially Germany and South Korea. The ones made in Germany were mostly by Carl Eickhorn and were both for sale to other countries such as Haiti and Denmark (among others) and for regular retail sales by various "surplus" dealers. The ones made in South Korea were mostly for their own military use but some were made for export to the US again to be sold by surplus dealers. Some were possibly made in other countries also.

 

From what I have seen, those being sold by the CMP may be a mixture of US military models that had came from regular stocks, and ones made on US contract to be supplied under military aid programs. All are technically US bayonets as they were made to US specifications and were paid for the the US military. As they get into the older models, I think you will find that they are mostly regular US issue with the possible exception of some of the 10 inch M1 bayonets which were apparently made in Greece.

 

As far as the question about "Unissued USGI" being an oxymoron, no it is not. Many US bayonets have been sold without ever having been issued. Just recently a DRMO sale had several M7 bayonets still in the original wrap, and I have seen others over the years that were sold without ever having been issued.

 

I just want to emphasize what has been said about the DAS stamp, which was discontinued somewhere circa 1965-67. I have looked for years for a M7 bayonet with the DAS and have never seen one, so the change had to have been made about then. Any US bayonets, whether M5A1 or M6 that lack the DAS were simply made after that time, and does not mean that they were not US military issue.

[45ACP]

What is that strange thing on the right end?

 

 

My M5's with a M4