LtRGFRANK Posted June 29, 2010 Share #1 Posted June 29, 2010 Finally acquired enough parts to get my saddle done. Now to attach equipment. In reviewing my reference material it states the blanket and overcoat were rolled and tied to the rear of the saddle. thinking that would be exposed to the weather I was thinking there might be a roll using a shelter half. Would that be correct. I have the Patton sabre, rifle and scabbard, ration bags etc. Have a horse to use. I do need about a 5'2" kid to fit boots and uniform. Anyone who can help with the roll? Thanks. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldfireguy Posted June 29, 2010 Share #2 Posted June 29, 2010 Looking at photographs it looks to me like the overcoat went on the front and the bedroll went on the back. The bedroll was a blanket or two rolled up into the shelter half. Shelter half on the outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LtRGFRANK Posted June 29, 2010 Author Share #3 Posted June 29, 2010 That sounds better. I have about 20 pictures of horse gear and no two are the same. Mainly attaching the Patton and rifle scabbard. So I'll probably do what works best. I'm mainly doing WWI era. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Apathy Posted June 29, 2010 Share #4 Posted June 29, 2010 Finally acquired enough parts to get my saddle done. Now to attach equipment. In reviewing my reference material it states the blanket and overcoat were rolled and tied to the rear of the saddle. thinking that would be exposed to the weather I was thinking there might be a roll using a shelter half. Would that be correct. I have the Patton sabre, rifle and scabbard, ration bags etc. Have a horse to use. I do need about a 5'2" kid to fit boots and uniform. Anyone who can help with the roll? Thanks. Robert Hi Robert, a nice piece and looks in good condition ( I don't have one ) I have visited a few times someone I know here named McClellan, he was born in America but returned as a small child to the families ancestral location in Scotland, but now lives here. He has a print hanging in his house of his ancestor in frockcoat uniform who invented these saddles for the US Army. Cheers Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LtRGFRANK Posted June 29, 2010 Author Share #5 Posted June 29, 2010 Hi Robert, a nice piece and looks in good condition ( I don't have one ) I have visited a few times someone I know here named McClellan, he was born in America but returned as a small child to the families ancestral location in Scotland, but now lives here. He has a print hanging in his house of his ancestor in frockcoat uniform who invented these saddles for the US Army. Cheers Ken Dig deeper in that shoe box. Might find one down deep I've got something you don't ? :w00t: Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hbtcoveralls Posted June 30, 2010 Share #6 Posted June 30, 2010 I have the complete instructions of how to pack the McClellan Saddle, including how to properly roll the cantle roll and where everything goes. Cavalry equiptment needs to be balanced properly for the comfort of the horse (to hell with the trooper) so that although the equiptments changed somewhat, you rarely see much deviation from the book. The instructions for the cantle roll (which included the tent poll pins and rope,and one bedding blanket) are too long to copy but if you PM me I can shoot you some copies. By the way the instructions are also in the 1941 edition soldier's manual and didn't change from WWI. You'll also need the correct coat straps to roll it and mount it correctly on the saddle. Here is an example from one of our ridden cavalry displays Tom Bowers Anderson SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted June 30, 2010 Share #7 Posted June 30, 2010 Here is an example from one of our ridden cavalry displays Nice! WHat time frame would that fit into?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hbtcoveralls Posted June 30, 2010 Share #8 Posted June 30, 2010 Nice! WHat time frame would that fit into?? Hi Johan, We were aiming for Pennsylvania National Guard 103rd Cavalry just before they were unhorsed in 1941. There are a few anachronisims that we were unsure about at the time, and I'm sure a real cav fan would pick them out, but on balance its all correct and the horse equipments didn't change much from prior to WWI until the equipments seen in the photo. Most of the Cavalry, by the time they were unhorsed, was riding in the model 28 modified McClellan saddle, but our evidence suggests that the 103rd was in 04s to the end so that is what is represented. The only other major differences from the WW1 era shown is the M-1 rifle and scabbard, which replaced the 03 and the lack of a 1913 sword (gone in about 1925) which would have been hung on the right side of the horse and wouldn't be visible in this photo. Cavalry collecting is fun, but riding in the gear is a real experience. It really gives you an appreciation for just how quirky the McClellan saddle is. The Cavalry tried in 1912 to get rid of the McClellan but fell short of the mark. Most of the European cavlary equipment I've tried is far superior to the old '04. Tom Bowers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LtRGFRANK Posted June 30, 2010 Author Share #9 Posted June 30, 2010 I have the complete instructions of how to pack the McClellan Saddle, including how to properly roll the cantle roll and where everything goes. Cavalry equiptment needs to be balanced properly for the comfort of the horse (to hell with the trooper) so that although the equiptments changed somewhat, you rarely see much deviation from the book. The instructions for the cantle roll (which included the tent poll pins and rope,and one bedding blanket) are too long to copy but if you PM me I can shoot you some copies. By the way the instructions are also in the 1941 edition soldier's manual and didn't change from WWI. You'll also need the correct coat straps to roll it and mount it correctly on the saddle. Here is an example from one of our ridden cavalry displays Tom Bowers Anderson SC Thanks for the picture Tom and the info. I just dug through my books and came up with the 41 Soldiers handbook so I'm good to go. And LOL at your comment on riding. YEARS ago I was an active Hound man. Following the hounds by mule. And I used the McClellen because of its light weight and I had a small mule. I really liked it. Can't wait to see it all done and on a horse. But I won't be the rider as I'm no where near 5'2" to fit my uniforms. And with my bad hips and don't think I could swing a leg over. Again thanks everyone. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted June 30, 2010 Share #10 Posted June 30, 2010 Thanks for the info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Holscher Posted July 1, 2010 Share #11 Posted July 1, 2010 Finally acquired enough parts to get my saddle done. Now to attach equipment. In reviewing my reference material it states the blanket and overcoat were rolled and tied to the rear of the saddle. thinking that would be exposed to the weather I was thinking there might be a roll using a shelter half. Would that be correct. I have the Patton sabre, rifle and scabbard, ration bags etc. Have a horse to use. I do need about a 5'2" kid to fit boots and uniform. Anyone who can help with the roll? Thanks. Robert You might want to check out the McClellan section at our site, www.militaryhorse.org . It's fairly extensive. If that doesn't answer your questions, the forum there likely does, or you could post a query on the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Holscher Posted July 1, 2010 Share #12 Posted July 1, 2010 Hi Johan,We were aiming for Pennsylvania National Guard 103rd Cavalry just before they were unhorsed in 1941. There are a few anachronisims that we were unsure about at the time, and I'm sure a real cav fan would pick them out, but on balance its all correct and the horse equipments didn't change much from prior to WWI until the equipments seen in the photo. Most of the Cavalry, by the time they were unhorsed, was riding in the model 28 modified McClellan saddle, but our evidence suggests that the 103rd was in 04s to the end so that is what is represented. The only other major differences from the WW1 era shown is the M-1 rifle and scabbard, which replaced the 03 and the lack of a 1913 sword (gone in about 1925) which would have been hung on the right side of the horse and wouldn't be visible in this photo. Cavalry collecting is fun, but riding in the gear is a real experience. It really gives you an appreciation for just how quirky the McClellan saddle is. The Cavalry tried in 1912 to get rid of the McClellan but fell short of the mark. Most of the European cavlary equipment I've tried is far superior to the old '04. Tom Bowers M1904s never managed to completely replace the M1928. M1928s themselves were often conversions made directly within the units by the saddlers using patterns supplied by the Quartermaster Corps. Patton sabers were obsolete by 41, but some Guard units still had them in the inventory at the time of their mobilization in 40. I don't think the sabers lasted much past the call up, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hbtcoveralls Posted July 1, 2010 Share #13 Posted July 1, 2010 M1904s never managed to completely replace the M1928. M1928s themselves were often conversions made directly within the units by the saddlers using patterns supplied by the Quartermaster Corps. Patton sabers were obsolete by 41, but some Guard units still had them in the inventory at the time of their mobilization in 40. I don't think the sabers lasted much past the call up, however. That is very true, There is so much variation in the 28 conversions because they were converted by the unit saddlers. I think most of the patton sabers were recalled well before '40 or '41. They are seen frequently in the 20s and all but disappear by the 30s. There was no real love lost on those things. They were never really that popular (I think they were even call the "old wrist breaker" by the troopers) so when they called them in everybody issued a collective sigh of relief. Tom Bowers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Holscher Posted July 1, 2010 Share #14 Posted July 1, 2010 That is very true, There is so much variation in the 28 conversions because they were converted by the unit saddlers. I think most of the patton sabers were recalled well before '40 or '41. They are seen frequently in the 20s and all but disappear by the 30s. There was no real love lost on those things. They were never really that popular (I think they were even call the "old wrist breaker" by the troopers) so when they called them in everybody issued a collective sigh of relief.Tom Bowers "Old Wrist Breaker" actually refers to a much earlier pattern of saber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Posted July 1, 2010 Share #15 Posted July 1, 2010 "Old Wrist Breaker" actually refers to a much earlier pattern of saber. M1840 Cavalry Saber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hbtcoveralls Posted July 2, 2010 Share #16 Posted July 2, 2010 M1840 Cavalry Saber I think the term had legs beyond that. I was able to interview a member of HQ compamy 103rd Cavalry regiment (PA national Guard) who served in the unit from 1925 until 1935. When I asked about the 1913 sword, he called it the old wrist breaker. Probably just a tradition in the Cavalry to call your saber a "wrist breaker" but he was one who was glad to be rid of the thing. His rememberence was that they only practiced with them at summer camp in MT Gretna PA. There they would all have to qualify by running the course at the "heads". Apparently there were some injuries :pinch: . The pistol course however was alot more fun, even though the horses weren't all trained Cavalry Mounts. Money was tight for the National Guard and they would rent horses locally so that out of town units didn't need to bring their horses to camp, espcially since the 103rd had armories scattered all over the state, hence their motto "scatter come together". Other mounted troopers I interviewed through the years, joined later and had no rememberence of the sword at all. Tom Bowers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Posted July 2, 2010 Share #17 Posted July 2, 2010 Very interesting, Tom! It's fascinating how certain nomenclature is far reaching beyond its original use. The M1840 Cavalry Saber was a heavy saber, with a thick, wide blade. In 1860, a new model cavalry saber was adopted which followed the same basic design, but with a lighter blade, hence the name the M1860 "Light" Cavalry Saber. Dragoons referred to the M1840 model as "old wrist breaker", whereas the M1860 was spared such a term of endearment. Thanks for sharing that, though. I found it very interesting! Also, in regards to LTRGFRANK's mission to complete this saddle, way to go! I am in the process of acquiring all the equipement for a M1904 McClellan display. Not as easy as it sounds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LtRGFRANK Posted July 2, 2010 Author Share #18 Posted July 2, 2010 Isn't that the truth. Still need 4 brass rings. Steel will have to due till I find the brass ones. Stirrup straps would need replaced too some day. Little stiff and brittle. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinb Posted July 2, 2010 Share #19 Posted July 2, 2010 Just thought I'd add a couple shots of my M1904. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinb Posted July 2, 2010 Share #20 Posted July 2, 2010 And the M1928. The saddle bag is a BG-82 radio bag. Used to carry the BC-222 radio set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Posted July 2, 2010 Share #21 Posted July 2, 2010 What are you guys using to mount the saddle? I have a complete saddle, but it sits in a box, trying to figure out how to put it on a form for a display. Any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Holscher Posted July 2, 2010 Share #22 Posted July 2, 2010 Isn't that the truth. Still need 4 brass rings. Steel will have to due till I find the brass ones. Stirrup straps would need replaced too some day. Little stiff and brittle. Robert Do you intend to replace the steel artillery stirrups with hooded cavalry ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Holscher Posted July 2, 2010 Share #23 Posted July 2, 2010 Isn't that the truth. Still need 4 brass rings. Steel will have to due till I find the brass ones. Stirrup straps would need replaced too some day. Little stiff and brittle. Robert I note you're featuring feders as well. That's also an artillery feature for the 04. By off chance, was this one an artillery model? They're quite close, and it's pretty common to make the minor switches in items for a cavalry display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Holscher Posted July 2, 2010 Share #24 Posted July 2, 2010 I note you're featuring feders as well. That's also an artillery feature for the 04. By off chance, was this one an artillery model? They're quite close, and it's pretty common to make the minor switches in items for a cavalry display. Oops, was looking at the wrong photos there. I see your original photo does not have fenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Holscher Posted July 2, 2010 Share #25 Posted July 2, 2010 And the M1928. The saddle bag is a BG-82 radio bag. Used to carry the BC-222 radio set. Neat example of the radio bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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