patchguy Posted June 26, 2010 Share #1 Posted June 26, 2010 I don't like it for a couple of reasons What's your opinion? http://cgi.ebay.com/ORIGINAL-WW2-US-OSS-pa...#ht_2207wt_1139 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted June 26, 2010 Share #2 Posted June 26, 2010 He has two for sale....post pics!!!! He is a picker from the twin cities. RD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saskatoon Light Infantry Posted June 26, 2010 Share #3 Posted June 26, 2010 This is the SF wing in question. Neither wing is a wartime original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinO Posted June 27, 2010 Share #4 Posted June 27, 2010 What period would these be from? Asking because it sounds like they came close to out of the woodwork... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steverino Posted June 27, 2010 Share #5 Posted June 27, 2010 What period would these be from? Asking because it sounds like they came close to out of the woodwork... I will admit right up front that this is not in my area of expertise, so I'm NOT doubting those who have determined that this wing (not the one with the embroiudered edge) is a repro. From the construction, I can tell you that this is nothing made even close to recently, so what are the signs that it is not original? Patch Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patchguy Posted June 27, 2010 Author Share #6 Posted June 27, 2010 I will admit right up front that this is not in my area of expertise, so I'm NOT doubting those who have determined that this wing (not the one with the embroiudered edge) is a repro. From the construction, I can tell you that this is nothing made even close to recently, so what are the signs that it is not original? Patch Johnson Originals have a period (.) after the SF. On the back, originals have a distinctive embroidered color pattern on the red disc. Bill Scott can tell you what, he clued me in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saarf Posted June 27, 2010 Share #7 Posted June 27, 2010 Like Patch Johnson, I would be interested in knowing what aspects of this patch's construction preclude its being a period piece. I have four variants of the SF wing (one bullion, the others cotton embroidery on black wool), all acquired directly from OSS veterans. I downloaded the images of this wing and compared them side by side with hi-res images of the front and back of one of mine. The one of mine in question is in the same style as the second one that the eBay seller shows (and has listed), with the base material forming a fairly wide border around the wings and the roundel. Mine differs from his in that both the base material and roundel of mine are wool whereas they appear to be twill on his. (I’ve not before encountered his twill version.) Mine, like his, lacks the full stop (period) after the letter F. If the black wool border of mine were trimmed closer, and the backing material trimmed even closer, the resulting wing – front and back – would be very similar to what the seller is offering here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted June 27, 2010 Share #8 Posted June 27, 2010 Someone really liked it.Went from $152 to $260.00at 10 seconds to go then finnished in the last couple seconds at $1282.00 RD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted June 27, 2010 Share #9 Posted June 27, 2010 Second wing finnished at $737.00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seebee1 Posted June 27, 2010 Share #10 Posted June 27, 2010 Some very good points and observations made by "saarf". One of the two Wings on offer, that made $737, was certainly post-WW2 and not an original piece, the other, sold for $1282, was very close, but with too many variances to an original. I also do not believe that either were made in England. The base material, twill as mentioned, is not as any originals I have encountered previously. It is a possibility that this example is an unusual period-made variation, but I somehow doubt it. Regards, Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageproductions Posted June 27, 2010 Share #11 Posted June 27, 2010 Well, I know I would trust SAARF's opinions on these in a second. I know he has studied them intensely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saarf Posted June 27, 2010 Share #12 Posted June 27, 2010 The construction of wing #1, in my view, is consistent with a period piece, but as seebee1 (whom I know and whose opinion I respect) points out, and as I did implicitly, deviates in some respects from the genuine examples that we have seen (requiring closer trimming). Wing #2, embroidered on twill, is one that I would have avoided, not being consistent with anything I have encountered. These points raise some interesting questions. First, if these were found together, in the manner the seller describes, can one be genuine but the other not? Second, and this is a more general question, are insignia like these, that fetch big prices in public venues such as eBay, bootstrapped into respectability by the fact they have fetched big prices? I began collecting in the early 1980s and spent years seeking insignia and information regarding them from veterans. Today, few veterans (of WWII) are around, and few collectors, I suspect, are motivated to go beyond Internet resources to further their collecting interests. Will the hobby 20 years hence be ruled by rumors and myths and realized prices on eBay? I wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonomachi Posted June 28, 2010 Share #13 Posted June 28, 2010 I purchased the wool variant of the OSS wing maybe 15 to 20 years at an insignia show from a seller who had flown over from England. It is not trimmed as closely as the one that sold on eBay but is the same wing. I don't know where and when it was made but it came from England. It is in my collection as an original piece because it matched the one published in the Trading Post by SAARF as one of four variants that came from OSS veterans. I've attached photos of my OSS wing with the one that sold on eBay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonomachi Posted June 28, 2010 Share #14 Posted June 28, 2010 The second OSS wing I've never seen before. However the raised border on this particular OSS wing looked familiar with another OSS piece I have in my collection. I collect WW2 era foreign paratrooper insignia. I picked up a pair of WW2 era British paratrooper wings from a seller who had supposedly gotten them from a US OSS veteran. The veteran wrote a short note which I've included below. I have a number of variations of the WW2 era British paratrooper wing in my collection. The one with the raised border I had never come across before. I thought it was interesting that this OSS wing has a raised border and is embroidered on thin material like this British paratrooper wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonomachi Posted June 28, 2010 Share #15 Posted June 28, 2010 Although the embroidery is different and the British paratrooper wing has a secondary backing material I thought the raised borders with an OSS connection was interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seebee1 Posted June 29, 2010 Share #16 Posted June 29, 2010 The Parachute Wing that you illustrate I do not believe is British. No British Parachutist Wings had a raised border during WW2. Several other countries have this feature, Australia, Rhodesia and Belgium, my feeling is that it belongs to the latter country and also post WW2. Of the two "British" Parachutist Wings posted, the top one certainly seems to be an original of WW2. It is very possible that the veteran they came from picked-up the other pattern somewhere along the line and at a later time frame. Regards, Clive. . Although the embroidery is different and the British paratrooper wing has a secondary backing material I thought the raised borders with an OSS connection was interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seebee1 Posted June 29, 2010 Share #17 Posted June 29, 2010 The fact that the seller flew over from England does not mean that he bought the Wing in that country, nor that it originated from there either. In England this pattern is very uncommon, never found in the hands of British veterans, who all had the regular and original British manufactured pattern, quite different from this design. The Americans who served in the OSS used both the British pattern and this other variant. Where this pattern was manufactured I really do not know, possibly in America, China or India. The example shown as a comparison to the one sold on eBay surely is not the same, there are differences. To further add to the discussion I will post three of my original examples. It is probable that no firm conclusion can be made about the eBay Wing, it could be a previously un-known variation. The problem with any such item is that it will always raise question marks and doubt, because it is not the same as those examples that are known to be 100% originals. Regards, Clive. I purchased the wool variant of the OSS wing maybe 15 to 20 years at an insignia show from a seller who had flown over from England. It is not trimmed as closely as the one that sold on eBay but is the same wing. I don't know where and when it was made but it came from England. It is in my collection as an original piece because it matched the one published in the Trading Post by SAARF as one of four variants that came from OSS veterans. I've attached photos of my OSS wing with the one that sold on eBay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seebee1 Posted June 29, 2010 Share #18 Posted June 29, 2010 Reverse The fact that the seller flew over from England does not mean that he bought the Wing in that country, nor that it orininated from there either. In England this pattern is very uncommon, never found in the hands of British veterans, who all had the regular and original British manufactured pattern, quite different from this design. The Americans who served in the OSS used both the British pattern and this other variant. Where this pattern was manufactured I really do not know, possibly in America, China or India. The example shown as a comparison to the one sold on eBay surely is not the same, there are differences. To further add to the discussion I will post three of my original examples. It is probable that no firm conclusion can be made about the eBay Wing, it could be a previously un-known variation. The problem with any such item is that it will always raise question marks and doubt, because it is not the same as those examples that are known to be 100% originals. Regards, Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saarf Posted June 29, 2010 Share #19 Posted June 29, 2010 The SF wing that tonomachi has posted is essentially identical to the one I felt to be very similar to the on eBay if the border were more closely trimmed. Mine came from a member of an OSS detachment that was attached to an Army or Army Group in the ETO. He had been based in England prior to the invasion, but he could not recall, 40 years afterwards, how he had come to have the wing. Interestingly, he was not jump qualified. I recall having seen this style of SF wing (with the wide wool border) on the uniform of at least one member of the UNION II Mission, a fellow who had come to OSS from the USMC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seebee1 Posted June 29, 2010 Share #20 Posted June 29, 2010 The question of the USMC OSS Union 11 SF Wing has also been on my mind. There are a number of well-known WW2 images of Peter Ortiz wearing the SF Wing, but not the pattern that this thread is examining. There are other images, but fairly poor resolution, that show the members of Union 11 in the field, SF Wings can be seen worn on the breast, but again not this pattern either? It is quite possible that this Wing was issued later in the war, in America? There is an example many will know of a USMC Uniform Jacket worn by Jack Riesler I believe, affixed to it is this pattern of SF Wing, but when and where was this applied? Unfortunately I have never heard first-hand from any American or British veteran where and exactly when they received their SF Wing. I have asked a few British Jedburghs and some thought they received their Wings at Milton Hall, but were uncertain, however recalled the competition for its design. Very understandable regarding the issue of a badge-insignia so many years ago. The Wing was of course worn by those not directly involved with combat, Headquarters Staff for example. Regards, Clive. The SF wing that tonomachi has posted is essentially identical to the one I felt to be very similar to the on eBay if the border were more closely trimmed. Mine came from a member of an OSS detachment that was attached to an Army or Army Group in the ETO. He had been based in England prior to the invasion, but he could not recall, 40 years afterwards, how he had come to have the wing. Interestingly, he was not jump qualified. I recall having seen this style of SF wing (with the wide wool border) on the uniform of at least one member of the UNION II Mission, a fellow who had come to OSS from the USMC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all-bull Posted June 30, 2010 Share #21 Posted June 30, 2010 I do not know enough to comment on the originality of these wings...But as for the price they went for, I just talked to the man who won the most expensive one. His bid amount was an accident (he forgot the decimal, but bit the bullet and paid), so I am not sure that we would want to think that these wings are worth $1200+ everyday...However, upon stating that, the second highest bidder seemed to think that they were. Just wanted to put that out there, so we know that everyone is human and can make mistakes, which can shift the market of these rare items. The construction of wing #1, in my view, is consistent with a period piece, but as seebee1 (whom I know and whose opinion I respect) points out, and as I did implicitly, deviates in some respects from the genuine examples that we have seen (requiring closer trimming). Wing #2, embroidered on twill, is one that I would have avoided, not being consistent with anything I have encountered. These points raise some interesting questions. First, if these were found together, in the manner the seller describes, can one be genuine but the other not? Second, and this is a more general question, are insignia like these, that fetch big prices in public venues such as eBay, bootstrapped into respectability by the fact they have fetched big prices? I began collecting in the early 1980s and spent years seeking insignia and information regarding them from veterans. Today, few veterans (of WWII) are around, and few collectors, I suspect, are motivated to go beyond Internet resources to further their collecting interests. Will the hobby 20 years hence be ruled by rumors and myths and realized prices on eBay? I wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shenkursk Posted July 1, 2010 Share #22 Posted July 1, 2010 Like Patch Johnson, I would be interested in knowing what aspects of this patch's construction preclude its being a period piece. I have four variants of the SF wing (one bullion, the others cotton embroidery on black wool), all acquired directly from OSS veterans. I downloaded the images of this wing and compared them side by side with hi-res images of the front and back of one of mine. The one of mine in question is in the same style as the second one that the eBay seller shows (and has listed), with the base material forming a fairly wide border around the wings and the roundel. Mine differs from his in that both the base material and roundel of mine are wool whereas they appear to be twill on his. (I’ve not before encountered his twill version.) Mine, like his, lacks the full stop (period) after the letter F. If the black wool border of mine were trimmed closer, and the backing material trimmed even closer, the resulting wing – front and back – would be very similar to what the seller is offering here. Thanks for posting this. Let me add that the seller is a good, trusted friend - if we lived closer, he would have a key to our building. John called me shortly after picking these up at the swop meet, kicking himself for not getting the vet's name. I know people regularly try to use the "I got this for nothing at a flea market" marketing technique, but when the seller here says so, you can take it to the bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squidres Posted July 7, 2010 Share #23 Posted July 7, 2010 I read these post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squidres Posted July 7, 2010 Share #24 Posted July 7, 2010 I read these posts with interests, and as an advanced collector of OSS insignia, it never fails to amuse me how little research people sometimes put into their posts. The first set (thick) are text book and one of three of the most common patterns known. THERE IS NOTHING AT ALL questionable about them, and they are the best example of the SF without a period. They went for about a thousand below market. Additionally, an almost identical pair of wings was pictured on Les Hughes website until he pulled the photo down to use in his book. Here is that photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squidres Posted July 7, 2010 Share #25 Posted July 7, 2010 I read these posts with interests, and as an advanced collector of OSS insignia, it never fails to amuse me how little research people sometimes put into their posts. The first set (thick) are text book and one of three of the most common patterns known. THERE IS NOTHING AT ALL questionable about them, and they are the best example of the SF without a period. They went for about a thousand below market. Additionally, an almost identical pair of wings was pictured on Les Hughes website until he pulled the photo down to use in his book. Here is that photo Bottom line opinions are just that, they REALLY were found as the seller described, and take this opportunity and save the photo as a picture of a real known style of wing, and a less common variant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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